07-13-2010, 09:11 PM
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#196
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still unsmited
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,661
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Quote:
lostsheep wrote
Since the beginning of recorded history it seems that people have sought to distinguish themselves from animals, and to establish their godhood. I guess we want to think of ourselves as special, and we like to think we have more power over our lives than we actually do, and we like to think that some magical sky-faerie can rescue us from cancer or other horrors if we pray hard enough. I suppose, given human nature, we really CAN'T help ourselves from thinking these things!
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I agree with this assessment, and on surface the distinction between humans and other animals seems valid enough, what with our language and thumbs and all. I'm sure that alone provides adequate evidence for people like Neanderthals and xians. Beyond such surface similarity, however, is not much besides egotistical rationalization, perhaps even a defensive ploy, in that we recognize the capacity for brutishness and base behaviors within our species, but wish to maintain our regard for ourselves as being nobler by far than the humble beasties.
Quote:
But I wonder, does the belief in self-determinism, self-empowerment, and even a powerful being who is watching out for you, improve a person's psychological health and thereby improve the likelihood of successful outcomes in a person's life? Sort of like a placebo? I think it is possible.
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There have been a few studies comparing religiosity to happiness (sorry, can't find the reference, but they're out there). They always piss me off when I read them, because the christpunchers seem to rank higher on the happy scale than non-religious peeps, controlling for factors like income and education. But such studies don't usually include atheism per se as a factor. They tend to lump everybody who isn't strictly xian into the same comparison group. So for example, a study on religiosity and happiness might include in the comparison group failed xians, undecideds, "spiritual" types, fence sitters, and leprechaun fanciers all into one group and call them "non-religious". Not the most valid design.
So I think there are some possible health benefits of severe religiosity available to those who can swallow that ginormous frickin blue pill. Sort of like how a lobotomy makes you worry less.
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07-14-2010, 03:27 AM
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#197
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Stinkin' Mod
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Britland
Posts: 13,616
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Quote:
Gnosital wrote
Sort of like how a lobotomy makes you worry less.
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I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me, than a full frontal lobo ....
[/bad joke]
Stop the Holy See men!
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07-14-2010, 06:55 AM
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#198
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shred
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Allentown Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 1,038
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Quote:
Smellyoldgit wrote
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me, than a full frontal lobo ....
[/bad joke]
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Some days I wish I had both, like when I come back to work after a vacation.
"Ignorance is not bliss; it is terrifying like walking blindfolded down a dark hallway full of set bear traps." ~ Sternwallow
Death will be like 1964 all over again.
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07-14-2010, 12:19 PM
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#199
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,879
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So riddle me this. In your universe with no free will did you all self-determine to be atheists? Could you have self-determined a different outcome?
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07-14-2010, 12:38 PM
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#200
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Organ Donator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Beastly Muck
Posts: 13,136
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What is "self-determine" ?
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07-14-2010, 12:46 PM
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#201
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,879
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Did the biological system which is your self have an option between two contingent futures, both of which were possible outcomes depending on your evaluation and choice?
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07-14-2010, 02:20 PM
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#202
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Mongrel Nation
Posts: 4,839
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Quote:
thomastwo wrote
Did the biological system which is your self have an option between two contingent futures, both of which were possible outcomes depending on your evaluation and choice?
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The choice could go either way, determined by pre-determined unconscious evaluation bias. What part is chance & what is inherent is unknown, but likelihood of re-evaluation is not your choice.
thank goodness he's on our side
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07-14-2010, 03:17 PM
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#203
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,879
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Quote:
dogpet wrote
The choice could go either way, determined by pre-determined unconscious evaluation bias.
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Are you saying that your choice to be an atheist was not a conscious choice? Or at least that what appeared to be a conscious choice was pre-determined by the evaluation of your unconscious mind?
Is there evidence that all conscious choices are illusory in this way?
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07-14-2010, 03:56 PM
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#204
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I Live Here
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Around the way
Posts: 12,641
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Given how you've lived your life thus far, thomastwo, can you choose, without threats or prompting, to believe that Muhammad is God's final prophet?
I'd say you don't exactly choose to believe something. You either believe it or you don't. The reasons why you believe are going to be dependent on a variety of internal and external factors, including critical thinking skills, culture and early indoctrination, to name a few.
It's frustrating to me that some Christians and other theists insist that sincere atheists actively "choose" to not believe in the supernatural or God. It doesn't take any work for me to not believe what you claim to believe. I very sincerely don't, in much the same way that you don't believe what Muslims believe.
It's not a choice. It's what is.
Edited: And if you (or any other Christian) ever present some evidence for a god that is compelling to me, I'll have no choice but to believe you. So far, no one has.
"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
Last edited by Irreligious; 07-14-2010 at 04:12 PM.
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07-14-2010, 04:50 PM
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#205
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I Live Here
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 23,211
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Quote:
Gnosital wrote
... we recognize the capacity for brutishness and base behaviors within our species, but wish to maintain our regard for ourselves as being nobler by far than the humble beasties.
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About your reference to beasties, I like to go bump in the night.
It does not seem nobler to me that, when an animal takes a bite out of the jugular of another animal, it is done without emotion, but when a human takes a bite out of another human's jugular, it is through malice if not outright hatred.
It is not noble for a spider to lay her eggs inside a caterpillar thatch and eat their way out while it is still alive. How is it noble for humans to spawn parasites who eat away at society also from the inside?
It seems to me that humans bring the reverse of nobility to otherwise morally neutral behaviors.
"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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07-14-2010, 05:08 PM
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#206
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I Live Here
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 23,211
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Quote:
thomastwo wrote
So riddle me this. In your universe with no free will did you all self-determine to be atheists? Could you have self-determined a different outcome?
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The state of mind and the state of the environment at the critical moment being identical, so would be the self-determination. Even so, to be happy and functioning in life, we (including you) must "feel strongly" that we are freely self-determined. Self-determination or free will is just as much an illusion as the solidity of the floors you walk on. Objects behave as though they were solid and people behave as though they can freely choose.
For me, atheism is a logical consequence of a lack of objective evidence for any supernatural influence in the universe and of the serious harm that is necessarily part of belief in supernatural influences. Primary harms of belief are: the destruction of reason, the abandonment of intellectual integrity, the abdication of personal responsibility, and the debasement of sincerity.
"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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07-14-2010, 05:16 PM
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#207
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I Live Here
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 23,211
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Quote:
thomastwo wrote
Did the biological system which is your self have an option between two contingent futures, both of which were possible outcomes depending on your evaluation and choice?
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Obvious loaded question with false premises, T2.
Of course both options were not possible as attested to by the fact that only one of them happens/happened. The evaluation and apparent choice is determined by the perceptions and desires of the moment, not the other way around.
"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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07-14-2010, 06:00 PM
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#208
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He who walks among the theists
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Big D
Posts: 12,119
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Quote:
Irreligious wrote
Given how you've lived your life thus far, thomastwo, can you choose, without threats or prompting, to believe that Muhammad is God's final prophet?
I'd say you don't exactly choose to believe something. You either believe it or you don't. The reasons why you believe are going to be dependent on a variety of internal and external factors, including critical thinking skills, culture and early indoctrination, to name a few.
It's frustrating to me that some Christians and other theists insist that sincere atheists actively "choose" to not believe in the supernatural or God. It doesn't take any work for me to not believe what you claim to believe. I very sincerely don't, in much the same way that you don't believe what Muslims believe.
It's not a choice. It's what is.
Edited: And if you (or any other Christian) ever present some evidence for a god that is compelling to me, I'll have no choice but to believe you. So far, no one has.
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Ahhh, but you choose to be gay, right?
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
George Bernard Shaw
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07-14-2010, 10:12 PM
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#209
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I Live Here
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Around the way
Posts: 12,641
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Quote:
nkb wrote
Ahhh, but you choose to be gay, right?
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Well, for a while I chose to try to be straight.
"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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07-15-2010, 02:30 AM
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#210
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Mistress Monster Mod'rator Spy
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The North Coast
Posts: 15,428
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"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
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