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Old 04-05-2011, 05:44 PM   #241
kowalskil
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Quote:
Smellyoldgit wrote View Post
Every theist will share your disbelief in every religion except their own.
Yes, disagreements between theists are very common.

Ludwik
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See “Diary of a Former Communist: Thoughts, Feelings, Reality.”
http//csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html
based on my diary kept between 1946 and 2004 (in the USSR, Poland, France and the USA).
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Old 04-05-2011, 06:26 PM   #242
Sternwallow
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Welcome L

I think the issue here is not differences between religions, but rather the issues of belief and disbelief.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:03 PM   #243
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I agree with you, Davin, and disagree with PZ.

I'm not cool with the "plus" concept either. Would you call black people who joined together to fight civil rights violations "blacks plus"?
No I wouldn't. I think that is a better analogy than some of the ones I mentioned, my "problem" was with analogy...and I may have added some of my own experiences into the mix.

I refuse to take you seriously.
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:00 AM   #244
MFN_BOSS
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Neither atheism nor theism are belief systems. They are simply an answer to a single question.

Do you believe a god exists?

If you answer yes, you're a theist.

Any other answer, you're an atheist.

Atheist's aren't trying to sell anything, we're just not buying what the theist is selling.
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:15 AM   #245
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Two statements “God created us on his image,” and “We created God on our image,” do not necessarily have to be called contradictory. We are part of material world; God is part of spiritual world. Endless conflicts between materialists (scientist) and spritualists (theologians) would gradually disappear if all people started accepting such position.

I am not the first one to formulate that idea; I accepted it and I am promoting it, as often as I can.

Ludwik Kowalski
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:25 AM   #246
nkb
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I agree with you, with one minor correction:

"We are part of material world; God is part of imaginary world."

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
George Bernard Shaw
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:38 AM   #247
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I love how people see shit as science and religion fighting. Science only cares when religion comes in and tries to mess up the place. Religion cares because they're insecure, so they go and try to mess up science. If religious fuckers didn't try to limit science for religious reasons, then science wouldn't give a single flying rat's ass about what religion does.

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:51 AM   #248
kowalskil
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Davin wrote View Post
I love how people see shit as science and religion fighting. Science only cares when religion comes in and tries to mess up the place. Religion cares because they're insecure, so they go and try to mess up science. If religious fuckers didn't try to limit science for religious reasons, then science wouldn't give a single flying rat's ass about what religion does.
I am not confusing religion with God.

Best wishes to all,

Ludwik Kowalski
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:57 AM   #249
Davin
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kowalskil wrote View Post
I am not confusing religion with God.

Best wishes to all,

Ludwik Kowalski
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Who said you were?

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:18 PM   #250
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Davin wrote View Post
I love how people see shit as science and religion fighting. Science only cares when religion comes in and tries to mess up the place. Religion cares because they're insecure, so they go and try to mess up science. If religious fuckers didn't try to limit science for religious reasons, then science wouldn't give a single flying rat's ass about what religion does.
I don't know, Davin. Maybe science has to care about religion, and vice versa. If religion and science are claiming conflicting things about reality, then maybe conflict is inevitable. I mean, if people believe that spirits possess people and that possessed people should be burned at the stake, but science leads to far different conclusions, then how can scientists be indifferent to this behavior and beliefs? A material philosophy seems incompatible with a spiritual one.

"If God inspired the Bible, why is it such a piece of shit?" (Kaziglu Bey)
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Old 12-15-2011, 12:34 AM   #251
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I don't know, Davin. Maybe science has to care about religion, and vice versa. If religion and science are claiming conflicting things about reality, then maybe conflict is inevitable. I mean, if people believe that spirits possess people and that possessed people should be burned at the stake, but science leads to far different conclusions, then how can scientists be indifferent to this behavior and beliefs? A material philosophy seems incompatible with a spiritual one.
Well said
In fact I was in Davin's camp on this issue, that science and religion could be compatible if only religion would restrict itself to spiritual or moral issues. Your example showed that spiritual or supernatural phenomena are usless to consider if they do not have an effect on reality.

See, people, it is quite possible, with an open mind, to change one's position when supporting evidence is presented.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 12-15-2011, 03:03 AM   #252
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Neither atheism nor theism are belief systems. They are simply an answer to a single question.

Do you believe a god exists?

If you answer yes, you're a theist.

Any other answer, you're an atheist.

Atheist's aren't trying to sell anything, we're just not buying what the theist is selling.
An excellent view point.
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Old 12-15-2011, 08:38 AM   #253
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lostsheep wrote View Post
I don't know, Davin. Maybe science has to care about religion, and vice versa. If religion and science are claiming conflicting things about reality, then maybe conflict is inevitable. I mean, if people believe that spirits possess people and that possessed people should be burned at the stake, but science leads to far different conclusions, then how can scientists be indifferent to this behavior and beliefs? A material philosophy seems incompatible with a spiritual one.
I don't think science should care at all about what religion claims, caring would only make a bias harder to remove, which would lead to not being very scientific. With our current scientific method, we are getting a very accurate depiction of reality, there is no need to throw in caring about religious claims to fuck it all up.

The second part is a call to something outside the context of science. If the science leads to there being something other than demon possession, then the people should act, science is just a methodology and we must emply other methodologies to deal with that kind of behavior, not attach it onto science to make it even worse. Use science to explain things and why you think one should or shouldn't do something, but don't try to increase the scope of science.

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.
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Old 12-15-2011, 08:47 AM   #254
kowalskil
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Davin wrote View Post

... The second part is a call to something outside the context of science. If the science leads to there being something other than demon possession, then the people should act, science is just a methodology and we must emply other methodologies to deal with that kind of behavior, not attach it onto science to make it even worse. Use science to explain things and why you think one should or shouldn't do something, but don't try to increase the scope of science.
Yes indeed; dealing with spiritual claims belongs to spiritualists (theologists) not scientists (materialists).

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia), athor of
http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html
this autobiography is based on a diary kept between 1946 and 2004 (in the USSR, Poland, France and the USA).
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Old 12-15-2011, 08:58 AM   #255
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Unless the spiritualists are making claims about the material world (as they often do), then their bullshit is fair game for science.

Pssst, Ludwik! Do you know the forum rules on spamming?

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
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