The Second Law Of Thermodynamics (sorry).

[Waddlie]

I often hear godiots harping on about the 2nd LOT. Not being much of a scientist I can't really take issue with them because I don't understand the 2nd LOT myself. However, from what I have read, it does seem that the fundy viewpoint on the 2nd LOT is wrong in a way that can be easily understood and explained to/by a layperson such as myself. On that basis, if someone could take a couple of minutes explaining in a simple manner as possible:

i) What the 2nd LOT is,
ii) What grounds the fundies tend to give as proof that the 2nd LOT disproves evolution/proves creation, and
iii) Why the fundy viewpoint is wrong...

I'd be very grateful indeed. Thanks.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics is the law of Entropy. Basically, it says any closed system will lose energy until it stops/dies/gets cold. (The state of maximum entropy is the state where 0 energy is available to do work)

It doesn't apply to the earth because the sun continuously heats the earth. As an example... fill a pot with water. Put it on the stove. Oh Noes! It gets MORE energetic! Not less! Where is this energy coming from? It's a mystery!

Fundys are wrong because they're idiots and don't konw what they're talking about.

1 ) The Second Law of Thermodynamics can be formulated in many ways; perhaps the most useful overall is that physical processes in a closed system will tend to increase the overall entropy of the system over time. "Entropy" can be thought of as a measue of how "spread out" the energy of a system is over its available microstates. (It's also sometimes thought of as a measure of the "disorder" in the system, which is a misleading and imprecise term. A deck of cards that is organized by rank and suit has no more entropy than any other particular configuration of cards, for example. Similarly, the formation of "ordered" structures like lipid micelles is actually driven by the entropy of the water in which the lipids are immersed.) Anyway, the point is that it makes no sense to divorce the concept of entropy from the concept of energy, so fundies are incorrect when they try to formulate the second law in terms of "order" or "information".

2 ) Fundies claim that the second law of thermodynamics contradicts the theory of evolution because the evolution of complex multicellular organisms would seem to be an increase in order over time, which is the opposite of what the second law says.

3 ) The fundy viewpoint is wrong because the Earth is not a closed system, and therefore they are trying to apply the second law to a system where it does not apply. Just as you can compress a gas (thus decreasing the gas's entropy) by using a mechanical pump, organisms are able to build complex structures by supplying the energy they get from food, which ultimately comes from the Sun (which drives photosynthesis).

By the way, here's a website that does a good job at explaining the concept of entropy to the layman. You might find it helpful and interesting.

[Xans]

The earth isn't a closed system. However, the sum of it and everything else is.

[Choobus]

the christian mind is a closed system

Even if one does not have an understanding of the second law of thermodynamics, it is quite clear the fundie reasoning is wrong or else we wouldn't be here. According to fundies, things cannot increase in complexity over time. How then does a single cell go on to become an organism composed of trillions of cells working together? By their logic, most organisms cannot exist either.

[JU Mike]

I have one more stupid question, what exactly do they mean by "closed system" or "open system?"

[Waddlie]

Thanks to Ren and Stimpy Evil for the helpful explanations, and Xans for perfectly fulfilling Ren's final sentence...

JU Mike wrote

I have one more stupid question, what exactly do they mean by "closed system" or "open system?"

An open system is one that can exchange matter and energy with its surroundings, while a closed system can't.

[JU Mike]

Evil_Mage_Ra wrote

An open system is one that can exchange matter and energy with its surroundings, while a closed system can't.

Ah, got it. Thanks.

By the way, fundies also like to claim that the Big Bang model contradicts the second law of thermodynamics since the formation of galaxies and the like would imply increasing order over time. This argument is bogus because the universe is expanding; because it was so compact, the early universe had very low entropy--almost zero, in fact.

[Waddlie]

I gotta say, I've never been interested in scientific stuff and thought cosmology and the like a bit boring (if rather good for producing stunning pictures of groovy stuff), but I saw this documentary at about 2am a couple of weeks ago on how stars are formed and stuff, and it rocked. Made me wish I'd paid more attention in school and hadn't had to resort to social science for a career!

It's the Ren and Evil show! Thank you! Thank you! We'll be here all week!

I like the boiling water example... You take hot water, and put it on the stove... and it gets even HOTTER! The second law of thermodynamics says it should get colder! How is this possible?

Fundy: Um, the stove is on! You're adding heat!

You: That's right. Let's go outside and let me show you something....

[Choobus]

RenaissanceMan wrote

It's the Ren and Evil show! Thank you! Thank you! We'll be here all week!

I like the boiling water example... You take hot water, and put it on the stove... and it gets even HOTTER! The second law of thermodynamics says it should get colder! How is this possible?

Fundy: Um, the stove is on! You're adding heat!

You: That's right. Let's go outside and let me show you something....

Fundy: that thing up there! Awesome. Let's worship it.

[Kate]