01-13-2006, 07:25 AM
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#1
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Guest
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C-Warrior wrote:
legion - I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place when I read what you say, because how can I be sure that you're telling the truth in what you write? The reason is this; atheism bucks the whole idea of moral absolutes. If one believes that there are no moral absolutes, it allows one to lie whenever they want and call it truth in the same breath, without (in their eyes) having done anything wrong. It also allows for a reverse (truth called a lie). So please understand if I take what you write with a grain of salt.
I'm tired of these people doing this crap in the middle of a debate when they are loseing. I've already had this happen to me two other times.
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01-13-2006, 07:54 AM
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#2
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Guest
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then congratulations are in order. When a theist stupes to these lows, in means that they know they lost and saying something like that can at least let them feel as though they're leaving with their heads high (but we atheists know it's high, all right... high up their asses).
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01-13-2006, 07:56 AM
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#3
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Guest
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They aren't even being logical. If you follow that idea through to its conclusion, they can't believe anything theists say either, because people claiming to be theists could just as well be atheists telling lies. And of course, there have been times when organized religions have purposely heald onto lies "for the greater good". Here's the translation of what they wrote.
"I don't want to consider what you are saying but I can't logically debunk your arguments, so I am going to call into question your sincerity so I can sleep at night knowing I didn't ignore the truth; I only ignored lies."
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01-13-2006, 08:32 AM
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#4
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I Live Here
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 23,211
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No moral absolutes means you can choose to follow rational, beneficial morals. It is more justifiable, I think, to obey a rule that is supported by reason than to follow another rule supported only by imagination and fear of fanciful punishment.
Strong morals are important for successful social behavior.
Absolute morals lead to absolutely hideous behavior.
"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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01-13-2006, 09:13 AM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 894
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The moral argument by theists can backfire on them quite easily. Richard Dawkins pointed this out before. According to such Christians they only reason people are moral is becaues they fear God. This would then imply that if there wasn't a God, or if God allowed certain immoral acts then they would go around killing, stealing, and lying because there's nothing to stop them from doing so. It doesn't occur to them that such immoral acts wouldn't allow human societies to function at all. If everyone told lies then no one could trust each other and societies would break down. If everyone killed one another there would be no one left alive. Therefore, wouldn't it make logical sense not to do those things? Atheists follow this reasoning and abide by moral rules. Atheists, then, are moral (there's no proof that atheists are less moral than theists) because they think it's a good things to be moral. The fallacy in that argument is that people don't do things simply because they can do them. People don't jump off bridges just because they can. People don't cut themselves because they have access to knives. That argument assumes that people are inherently stupid or evil (or maybe it's just theists who think they themselves are stupid or evil).
Religion - it gives people hope in a world torn apart by religion.
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01-13-2006, 09:48 AM
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#6
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Guest
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Quote:
iam*legion wrote
C-Warrior wrote:
legion - I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place when I read what you say, because how can I be sure that you're telling the truth in what you write? The reason is this; atheism bucks the whole idea of moral absolutes. If one believes that there are no moral absolutes, it allows one to lie whenever they want and call it truth in the same breath, without (in their eyes) having done anything wrong. It also allows for a reverse (truth called a lie). So please understand if I take what you write with a grain of salt.
I'm tired of these people doing this crap in the middle of a debate when they are loseing. I've already had this happen to me two other times.
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Thats not acurate. No moral absolutes != (does not equal) no morals. Furthermore an absence of God != no moral absoultes (necisarily)
Therefore "it allows one to lie whenever they want and call it truth in the same breath" is not true. You can have an absolute prohibition against lieing because you feel its moraly wrong to lie (for a variety of reasons) without it being gods comand.
Furthermore there are many many moral systems underwhich you could not remail moral AND 'lie whenever you feel like it'
Oh and BTW theists lie all the time so I fail to see what your point is anyway.
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01-13-2006, 10:00 AM
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#7
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I Live Here
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Chandler- Arizona
Posts: 14,227
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Quote:
StillSurviving wrote
They aren't even being logical. If you follow that idea through to its conclusion, they can't believe anything theists say either, because people claiming to be theists could just as well be atheists telling lies. And of course, there have been times when organized religions have purposely heald onto lies "for the greater good". Here's the translation of what they wrote.
"I don't want to consider what you are saying but I can't logically debunk your arguments, so I am going to call into question your sincerity so I can sleep at night knowing I didn't ignore the truth; I only ignored lies."
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One must realize that mental illness has NO LOGIC. The slight disturbances either by outside or inside elements can affect the brain's perception of the real world, eroding logic destroying this organ ability to reason embracing the delusions produced by religion beliefs as if it were a tangible reality. Religious folks simply show a neurological imbalance where delusions and fairy tales have more weight than reason. This imbalance is found in schizophrenics, borna virus depression sufferers, and temporal lobe epilepsy patients. One must realize that all religious belief systems are based on LIES which are readily accepted as the truth by people under religious-psychosis.
It is clear educated adults with a strong religious faith induced beliefs are schizoaffective thus neurologically dysfunctional. Crazy is as crazy thinks. A simple phrase which carries an undeniable truth........:)
Christians and other folks infected with delusional beliefs think and reason like schizophrenics or temporal lobe epileptics. Their morality is dictated by an invisible friend called Jesus.
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01-13-2006, 10:36 AM
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#8
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 894
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calpurnpiso: I've observed for some time that you classify religion as a mental illness. Personally, I don't think you have to go that far. Religious belief is simply ignorance, not a disease. Even Sam Harris, who's a neurologist stated that the way to counter religion is through conversation and challenging ascendent ignorance. He refutes the notion of a "God gene" or neurological dysfunction because there are societies which are highly atheistic (Norway, Denmark, Sweden) and it's not likely that there's a neurological or genetic difference between the average American and the average Swede. I mean, Canada is just a stone's throw away from the USA, yet only 70% of Canadians believe in God (while in America it's close to 95%). Having been a Christian before and having studied Christianity I can say that those who believe in God don't do so out of some disorder. They're just not educated enough (or have been brainwashed) to make an informed choice and rely more on their parents of friends (who are also Christian) than scientists. If you take that initial assumption (that there is a God) and see things from that perspective it makes complete sense to be a Christian. The way to counter religion is to challenge that initial assumption, not by force or by saying it's a mental illness, but by appealing to their sense of logic and reason (in short, by getting people to think for themselves and to think critically about God). Once they realize that that initial assumption is unwarranted everything will unravel by itself. Of course there are those who absolutely won't change no matter what, and those I wouldn't even bother trying. The thing is, saying religion is a mental illness is only going to increase resistance from theists, just like calling homosexuality a disorder did to homosexuals.
Religion - it gives people hope in a world torn apart by religion.
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01-13-2006, 10:59 AM
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#9
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I Live Here
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Chandler- Arizona
Posts: 14,227
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Quote:
Demigod79 wrote
calpurnpiso: I've observed for some time that you classify religion as a mental illness. Personally, I don't think you have to go that far. Religious belief is simply ignorance, not a disease. Even Sam Harris, who's a neurologist stated that the way to counter religion is through conversation and challenging ascendent ignorance. He refutes the notion of a "God gene" or neurological dysfunction because there are societies which are highly atheistic (Norway, Denmark, Sweden) and it's not likely that there's a neurological or genetic difference between the average American and the average Swede. I mean, Canada is just a stone's throw away from the USA, yet only 70% of Canadians believe in God (while in America it's close to 95%). Having been a Christian before and having studied Christianity I can say that those who believe in God don't do so out of some disorder. They're just not educated enough (or have been brainwashed) to make an informed choice and rely more on their parents of friends (who are also Christian) than scientists. If you take that initial assumption (that there is a God) and see things from that perspective it makes complete sense to be a Christian. The way to counter religion is to challenge that initial assumption, not by force or by saying it's a mental illness, but by appealing to their sense of logic and reason (in short, by getting people to think for themselves and to think critically about God). Once they realize that that initial assumption is unwarranted everything will unravel by itself. Of course there are those who absolutely won't change no matter what, and those I wouldn't even bother trying. The thing is, saying religion is a mental illness is only going to increase resistance from theists, just like calling homosexuality a disorder did to homosexuals.
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One can not cure the schizophrenia sufferer by merely educating them!. One can not cure those folks that have ingested hallucinogens by merely educating them. One can not cure Pat Robertson by educating him. One can not cure the Dalai lama by educating him. One can not cure Condi Rice ( a Christ-psychotic with a Ph.D) by educating her. One can not cure Benedictus XVI by educating him ( the man is brilliant and highly educated). One can not cure Andrea Yates by merely educating her. One can not cure the vast majority of the 2 million highly educated Muslims that attended the Hajj this week, where three hunded die while "stoning satan", by merely educating them.....etc etc
Don't ALL religious belief systems are based in the ACCEPTANCE of crazy puerile fairy tale delusions as REALITY?..and by educated people...
Isn't schizophrenia, temporal lobe epilepsy, schizoaffective anomalies, neurological disorders whose principal symptom is the ACCEPTANCE of delusions as if they were a tangilbe REALITY? Isn't a neurological imbalance where a delusions is given more credence than a tangible reality? ( as occurring in the developing child's brain)..
Remember that the people that refered to homosexuality as a mental illness were simply folks infected with Christ-psychosis, and many highly intelligent! You have to realize that one of the principal exponents of the absolutely INSANE and irrational Intelligent Design fairy tale is a highly educated scientist ( Behe)!.
So, it is obvious. REligious beliefs which are not much different than the beliefs of schizophrenia sufferers is just another form of neurological disorder, which I have labeled Religious-psychosis...so, if the shoe fits they MUST wear it...:)
Christians and other folks infected with delusional beliefs think and reason like schizophrenics or temporal lobe epileptics. Their morality is dictated by an invisible friend called Jesus.
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01-13-2006, 11:03 AM
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#10
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oxford, UK.
Posts: 2,330
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We did a whole thread on this. more than one. enough.
"You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat-catching, and will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family"
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01-13-2006, 11:58 AM
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#11
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 894
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Quote:
calpurnpiso wrote
One can not cure the schizophrenia sufferer by merely educating them!. One can not cure those folks that have ingested hallucinogens by merely educating them. One can not cure Pat Robertson by educating him. One can not cure the Dalai lama by educating him. One can not cure Condi Rice ( a Christ-psychotic with a Ph.D) by educating her. One can not cure Benedictus XVI by educating him ( the man is brilliant and highly educated). One can not cure Andrea Yates by merely educating her. One can not cure the vast majority of the 2 million highly educated Muslims that attended the Hajj this week, where three hunded die while "stoning satan", by merely educating them.....etc etc
Don't ALL religious belief systems are based in the ACCEPTANCE of crazy puerile fairy tale delusions as REALITY?..and by educated people...
Isn't schizophrenia, temporal lobe epilepsy, schizoaffective anomalies, neurological disorders whose principal symptom is the ACCEPTANCE of delusions as if they were a tangilbe REALITY? Isn't a neurological imbalance where a delusions is given more credence than a tangible reality? ( as occurring in the developing child's brain)..
Remember that the people that refered to homosexuality as a mental illness were simply folks infected with Christ-psychosis, and many highly intelligent! You have to realize that one of the principal exponents of the absolutely INSANE and irrational Intelligent Design fairy tale is a highly educated scientist ( Behe)!.
So, it is obvious. REligious beliefs which are not much different than the beliefs of schizophrenia sufferers is just another form of neurological disorder, which I have labeled Religious-psychosis...so, if the shoe fits they MUST wear it...:)
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Tell me, have you ever believed in God? Do you know what religious people feel when they pray? Have you ever read the bible with the belief in God? When a person has grown up with a firm belief in God or the supernatural then it makes sense to think these things. Having been a Christian before I know this (would you say I had a mental disorder and was cured?). I mean, most religious people who criticize things like evolution and the secular world do so because of misconceptions (mostly misconceptions about science). They simply don't know enough about science and methods of reasoning to make an informed choice. Although some theists are highly educated this doesn't mean they're always going to be critical of certain things in their lives. In fact, they might equate their success to God (a lot of theists do). A lot of theists also believe in God because they like to think that there is a purpose to their lives, which is clearly a matter of personal preference. The key to being an atheist is being a skeptic and that requires education and knowledge.
If anything, I want you to provide some hard scientific data that proves that religious belief is a mental disorder. From the common definition of mental disorder religion doesn't seem to fit.
BTW, homosexuality was originally classified as a mental disorder by psychologists (mostly non-theists). It was political pressure that forced them to reform their definition. Religious people don't see homosexuality as a disorder at all, they see it as sin (like any other sin, a consequence of man's free will and depravity).
Religion - it gives people hope in a world torn apart by religion.
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01-13-2006, 12:57 PM
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#12
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,260
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There are two laws to human behavior, what a person can do and what a person cannot do.
To say something is moral is simply to say "it is an effective survival strategy for social groups". Over time 'morality' came to have its own meaning, a divine one at that.
Morals are not laws, they are guidelines. Being immoral does not give you any ability that you didn't already have.
"When science was in its infancy, religion tried to strangle it in its cradle." - Robert G. Ingersoll
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01-13-2006, 01:01 PM
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#13
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I Live Here
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: prick up your ears
Posts: 20,553
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I'm running a book on what the C in C-warrior stands for. Here's a clue, it's not Christ
You can always turn tricks for a few extra bucks. If looks are an issue, there's the glory hole option, but don't expect more than ... tips.
~ Philiboid Studge
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01-13-2006, 01:11 PM
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#14
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Northeast
Posts: 1,711
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Quote:
Choobus wrote
I'm running a book on what the C in C-warrior stands for. Here's a clue, it's not Christ
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Does it stand for 'C'hoobus? hehe
To pray is to verbalize that which some may have difficulty saying aloud in everyday life, in an effort to gain support or smarts from an outside source. I have no need for prayer. I am able to rationalize within my mind, and have no problem speaking it.
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01-13-2006, 02:11 PM
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#15
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Guest
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Quote:
a different tim wrote
We did a whole thread on this. more than one. enough.
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Can I take it on faith : ) that Cal's position has already been exaustively debated? If so, I'll just leave it alone. Looks like a recipe for frustration.
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