Student kidnaps Eucharist - commits mortal sin

[VladTheImpaler]

Lily wrote

I understand what you are trying to get at, I think. But there is no answer to a non-question. It is something like asking me, if I would live on Mars, if we became so technically advanced that we could turn it into a habitable planet just like earth.

The terms of acceptance to heaven, as you put it, preclude anyone giving up his salvation to assure someone else's. It can't be done even as an imaginative exercise.

I fail to see why it can’t be done, even as an imaginative exercise.

I can in my mind conjure up the following scenario:

I am a deeply religious Christian and I and my wife give birth to a son. We teach him the Christian way and even at a very early age our son states that he accepts Jesus into his heart as his saviour. However, that is when it hits me, we live in a very secular society and most boys in their teens have turned away from God, this means that our son will very likely be tempted as the rest to turn away from God. The risk and probability of him becoming an atheist or something worse is high.

Considering life here on Earth does not hold a candle to eternity in Heaven or Hell I decide to ensure that my son’s future is a happy one. My love for my son outweighs the love for my self so in order to prevent my son from temptation in the future I take upon me the role as the villain and accept condemnation to hell by murdering my own son so that he shall be granted access into heaven (as he currently accept Jesus has his saviour) instead of risking later indoctrination by atheists and a future in eternal Hell.

By my own logic I have done a great service to my son, ensuring his eternal future by sacrificing my own.

There, I managed to pull through an imaginative exercise. Do you lack such creativity?

The reason it can't be imagined is that no one knows the state of anyone's soul. No one can force God's hand. The very fact that many of the atheists here were raised in the Church, were confirmed, or made professions of faith while not believing a word of it is proof that no parent (or anyone else) could rely on his ability to know for sure that such an act as you are envisioning would have the desired outcome.

[VladTheImpaler]

So what happens, in your opinion, when a young child (say five years old) dies after professing to accept Jesus into their heart while they might not in reality even grasp the concept or truly believe as they are too young to properly understand? I.e. they simply recycle the words that their parents told them. Does the child go to heaven or hell?

[VladTheImpaler]

Lily wrote

The reason it can't be imagined is that no one knows the state of anyone's soul. No one can force God's hand.

Lily wrote

What God has revealed we can speak about. He hasn't revealed the individual names of those who will go to hell. However, we do know, because he has said so, that those who reject him will. Ergo, I can confidently say that those who reject him will go to hell without presumption.

Aren't you contradicting your self?

VladTheImpaler wrote

Aren't you contradicting your self?

I don't see how. Where do you see a contradiction?

VladTheImpaler wrote

So what happens, in your opinion, when a young child (say five years old) dies after professing to accept Jesus into their heart while they might not in reality even grasp the concept or truly believe as they are too young to properly understand? I.e. they simply recycle the words that their parents told them. Does the child go to heaven or hell?

We believe that only those old enough and those of sound enough mind to reason are in any danger of hell. We believe that God is just and not playing games with us. I am certain, as Irreligious is sure to point out, that someone somewhere doesn't agree with this. The RC and every Protestant body I have knowledge of do agree on this point.

[VladTheImpaler]

Lily wrote

I don't see how. Where do you see a contradiction?

When you say...

Lily wrote

Ergo, I can confidently say that those who reject him will go to hell without presumption.

...aren't you claiming to know the state of ones soul?

Anyway...

Lily wrote

We believe that only those old enough and those of sound enough mind to reason are in any danger of hell. We believe that God is just and not playing games with us. I am certain, as Irreligious is sure to point out, that someone somewhere doesn't agree with this. The RC and every Protestant body I have knowledge of do agree on this point.

Can you specify what constitute a sound mind?

[Philboid Studge]

vlad, the contradiction is that one can force god's hand- by rejecting him. He's easy, as one would expect from an unimaginative figment.

[VladTheImpaler]

Philboid Studge wrote

vlad, the contradiction is that one can force god's hand- by rejecting him. He's easy, as one would expect from an unimaginative figment.

Hah, that slipped by me. That's true, so in my mind there are two contradictions.

It is a matter of fact and clearly stated in scripture that those people who reject God will be rejected by him. How is that a claim to know any particular individual's soul?

What constitutes a sound mind? A lack of mental illness and the ability to reason, to know right from wrong and be capable of choosing one or the other. No doubt, there may be more to it than that but that is what springs to mind.

I think Philboid needs to go back to bed and sleep it off. It is not "forcing God's hand" to choose one of the options he gave us. You might just as well claim that I am forcing my employer's hand when he pays me my salary. If I work, I get paid. If I don't, I don't get paid. This is not graduate level philosophy.

[VladTheImpaler]

Lily wrote

It is a matter of fact and clearly stated in scripture that those people who reject God will be rejected by him. How is that a claim to know any particular individual's soul?

Ok, lets take this slowly.

To you know I say that I reject the God of the Bible. I do not believe and I reject him as fantasy.

Now, taking into account your previous quotes, do you know the state of my soul? [In terms of where I am headed; Heaven or Hell].

If you are of sound mind and able to reason and *really* mean that, it is rather unlikely that you are headed for heaven. But I cannot absolutely know that because I don't know the hand you were dealt. I don't know what burdens you are carrying and what emotional and psychological wounds you bear. All I can do is warn you of the likely outcome of the choice you say you have made.

[VladTheImpaler]

Lily wrote

If you are of sound mind and able to reason and *really* mean that, it is rather unlikely that you are headed for heaven. But I cannot absolutely know that because I don't know the hand you were dealt. I don't know what burdens you are carrying and what emotional and psychological wounds you bear. All I can do is warn you of the likely outcome of the choice you say you have made.

What makes you an eligible to give me such a warning? Did God give you this authority?

[Irreligious]

Lily wrote

Utterly hopeless. Utterly. Do you understand the difference between these two assertions? You don't appear to.

1. Christianity teaches that Christ was raised from the dead on the 3rd day after his death and burial.

2. I believe that Christ was raised from the dead on the 3rd day after his death and burial.

Do you see the difference? Let me spell it out:

1. Statement of fact.

2. Statement of belief.

If you are incapable of seeing the difference. Poor you. If you do see the difference, then what in the name of God's green earth are you bitching and moaning about? Why are you wasting my time and your time with a lot of meaningless babble? It doesn't compute except on the assumption that you are arguing with some figment of your imagination and I don't really come into it at all.

Well, if it floats your boat, rave on. I am unlikely to bother with it any longer.

Lily, I know what Christianity teaches regarding the alleged resurrection of someone named Jesus Christ. That teaching is not a fact. There is no evidence supporting that assertion. Believing it is an act of faith. You know that.

[Irreligious]

Lily wrote

It is a matter of fact belief* and clearly stated in scripture that those people who reject God will be rejected by him. How is that a claim to know any particular individual's soul?

What constitutes a sound mind? A lack of mental illness and the ability to reason, to know right from wrong and be capable of choosing one or the other. No doubt, there may be more to it than that but that is what springs to mind.

I think Philboid needs to go back to bed and sleep it off. It is not "forcing God's hand" to choose one of the options he gave us. You might just as well claim that I am forcing my employer's hand when he pays me my salary. If I work, I get paid. If I don't, I don't get paid. This is not graduate level philosophy.

*Corrected by moi
There's a gaping flaw in your first sentence, which I took the liberty of correcting. It is not a fact that something called a God will reject people who reject him. That's a statement of belief by folks calling themselves Christians. These Christians present absolutely no evidence for this assertion; they just insist that it is true.

When you start with an unfounded assertion, much of what follows is bound to be nonsense and that's what your peddling, Lily. I'm going to keep reminding you of that fact.

[nkb]

Lily wrote

Well, if it floats your boat, rave on. I am unlikely to bother with it any longer.

I am unlikely to believe you.