10-21-2011, 07:52 PM
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#16
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I Live Here
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Quote:
Kate wrote
If at first you don't succeed and all that.
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Our regional quote was:
Quote:
If at first you don't succeed, just keep on sucking till you do succeed.
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"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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10-22-2011, 06:31 AM
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#17
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I Live Here
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Location: So Cal
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I guess the US government was trying to negotiate an extended stay and the Wikileaks disclosures made the negotiations impossible, so it was actually Wikileaks that got us out of that war.
Link
Never give a zombie girl a piggy back ride.
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10-22-2011, 06:45 AM
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#18
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I Live Here
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Never give a zombie girl a piggy back ride.
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10-22-2011, 08:35 AM
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#19
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Organ Donator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Beastly Muck
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I'm a fan of Glennzilla, but nowhere in his post does he mention that the Iraqis had asked for the U.S. to keep a substantial force there beyond the deadline (without immunity). That's kind of a key point innit? He makes it sound like the US was bullying the Iraqis, and Iraqi said bite me. Not true. Glenn writes, "the Obama administration has been working for months to persuade, pressure and cajole Iraq to allow U.S. troops to remain in that country beyond the deadline." But the Politico article -- where "persuade, pressure and cajole" is hyperlinked -- says no such thing. (It describes Panetta being confused about what Iraq agreed to.) That was weak, Glenn.
I'm a fan of Wikileaks, but ...
If we say "Wikileaks got us out of that war...", are we presuming that the Iraqi government was unaware of US troops committing crimes against its civilian population until the 2006 cable was released? That would be, as they say, a stretch. (But I think the released cable almost certainly made negotiations for the US to stay difficult. The Iraqi government couldn't let foreign boys and girls with guns patrol their country with immunity/impunity, as long as specific atrocities had been made public. You can only turn a blind eye to so much shit.)
Also too, supposing Iraq collapses in anarchy, sectarian fighting, Iranian meddling, Israeli bombing, or some other clusterfuck next year because the US presence is now confined to defending Fortress Embassy in Baghdad (with private mercenaries, btw)? Shall we credit Wikileaks with that too?
Complicated world is complicated.
Also, three. Leon Panetta is an ass.
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10-22-2011, 08:50 AM
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#20
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I Live Here
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You are correct in that the CNN post talks about the wikileaks link, not the Salon link.
The moral dilemma created in Iraq is the problem of the 147 and their hired meat bots, if they actually give a fuck, which I doubt.
Glenn is just awesome for reminding people to distrust the spin of large, defense friendly, media organizations. Lest we ever forget.
Glenn's mind is like Vin Diesel's body. Porn that never gets old.
Never give a zombie girl a piggy back ride.
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10-22-2011, 09:48 AM
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#21
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Organ Donator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Beastly Muck
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Quote:
ubs wrote
Glenn's mind is like Vin Diesel's body. Porn that never gets old.
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Okay now you rooned it for me.
Glennzilla is the closest thing we have to an heir to Chomsky, when Chomsky goes teats up. (Lots of people think that counts against him, but they're a bunch of dummies and part of the problem.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
La propriété, c'est le vol ...
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10-22-2011, 10:24 AM
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#22
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I Live Here
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Sorry. Forget what I said about Vin.
Chomsky has lost some of his shine for me. I like the interviews of him when he was young, but lately he embarrasses me with his inability to move beyond expired paradigms (references to the two parties, for instance, or a tea party view of libertarianism) and his constant disapproval of everything feels lazy and lacking in vision....like someone who tries to mask a deficit of wit with perpetual sarcasm.
Glenn is our Cronkite. I love old clips of Walter. (How's that? A little better?)
Never give a zombie girl a piggy back ride.
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10-22-2011, 10:56 AM
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#23
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Mistress Monster Mod'rator Spy
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The North Coast
Posts: 15,428
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"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
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10-22-2011, 06:48 PM
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#24
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I Live Here
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Quote:
Kate wrote
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Walter!
Can you even imagine any of our reporters having this much dignity
Never give a zombie girl a piggy back ride.
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10-23-2011, 05:06 AM
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#25
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Organ Donator
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Quote:
ubs wrote
Sorry. Forget what I said about Vin.
Chomsky has lost some of his shine for me. I like the interviews of him when he was young, but lately he embarrasses me with his inability to move beyond expired paradigms (references to the two parties, for instance, or a tea party view of libertarianism) and his constant disapproval of everything feels lazy and lacking in vision....like someone who tries to mask a deficit of wit with perpetual sarcasm.
Glenn is our Cronkite. I love old clips of Walter. (How's that? A little better?)
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Yes better because it doesn't invoke Vin Deisel. But Glenn is a lot more like Chomsky than Cronkite. Cronkite was a journalist, and that's the way it was. Glenn doesn't really do any original reporting. It's almost all commentary using mainstream reporters' work to buttress his points (that's exactly how Chomsky does social commentary, critiques on US imperialism, etc). I don't say that as a criticism of Glenn; I think it's very useful to have a smart, honest writer watching the watchmen.
What about Chomsky's references to the two parties? Basically he says the two parties are "two factions of the same party" (i.e., monied interests). Do you disagree with that? In what way is this an expired paradigm?
What do you mean by "a tea party view of libertarianism"? Do you mean that Chomsky views libertarianism the way a Tea Partier would? Or that he views libertarians as Tea Party caricatures? Or some other thing? (Not for nothing but Glenn noted the co-opting of the Tea Party by conservative monied interests early on, although he also predicted that the marriage wouldn't last, and on that he could not have been more wrong.)
"..his constant disapproval of everything feels lazy and lacking in vision...."
Are you talking about Greenwald or Chomsky ? (Can you find one Glennzilla post from the past three years that was not an expression of disapproval? Neither can I !)
"like someone who tries to mask a deficit of wit with perpetual sarcasm."
Yeah, sure it is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
La propriété, c'est le vol ...
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10-23-2011, 08:55 AM
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#26
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I Live Here
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Quote:
Philboid Studge wrote
What about Chomsky's references to the two parties? Basically he says the two parties are "two factions of the same party" (i.e., monied interests). Do you disagree with that? In what way is this an expired paradigm?
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No, I agree with that position, but then he says something like this:
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I mean, take one of the really crucial issues for the human species: doing something about environmental catastrophe. Well, you know, every single one of the Republican candidates—maybe not Huntsman, but every major one—is a climate change denier.
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Translation: Punch and Judy are controlled by the same guy, but that Judy is a real bitch!
Quote:
Philboid Studge wrote
What do you mean by "a tea party view of libertarianism"? Do you mean that Chomsky views libertarianism the way a Tea Partier would? Or that he views libertarians as Tea Party caricatures?
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I mean this:
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Chomsky: But you see, "libertarian" has a special meaning in the United States. The United States is off the spectrum of the main tradition in this respect: what's called "libertarianism" here is unbridled capitalism.
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Says who? This sounds like a profound conclusion drawn from a conversation in the faculty coffee room in the Philosophy building at MIT.
Quote:
Philboid Studge wrote
Or some other thing? (Not for nothing but Glenn noted the co-opting of the Tea Party by conservative monied interests early on, although he also predicted that the marriage wouldn't last, and on that he could not have been more wrong.)
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Well, I think the original players have long since departed. There were some OWS protesters on one youtube that talked about how they participated in the tea party very early on, but then dumped it when it took a bad turn. I wish I could find it now.
Quote:
Philboid Studge wrote
"..his constant disapproval of everything feels lazy and lacking in vision...."
Are you talking about Greenwald or Chomsky ?
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Chomsky. I can't remember ever disagreeing with Greenwald - not even on puppies.
Quote:
Philboid Studge wrote
"like someone who tries to mask a deficit of wit with perpetual sarcasm."
Yeah, sure it is.
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Never give a zombie girl a piggy back ride.
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10-23-2011, 10:17 AM
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#27
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I Live Here
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Also, Chomsky describes himself as a libertarian socialist, which like saying you're a anaerobic oxygen breather.
Never give a zombie girl a piggy back ride.
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10-24-2011, 06:49 AM
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#28
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Organ Donator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Beastly Muck
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Quote:
ubs wrote
Translation: Punch and Judy are controlled by the same guy, but that Judy is a real bitch!
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Can't agree with that. Noam has derided Obama (especially on foreign policy and civil liberties) since before the 2008 election. I hasten to add: SO HAS GLENN (although his derision came later). And Chomsky was no kinder to Clinton (Bill) when he was prez nor to Clinton (Hillary) now, nor Biden, nor et cetera.
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Says who? This sounds like a profound conclusion drawn from a conversation in the faculty coffee room in the Philosophy building at MIT.
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I think he's absolutely right. American (or perhaps we should say North American) libertarianism centers on economic freedom. True or false? It means other things elsewhere (see SEP link below). (As I recall, I directed you to that Chomsky interview some moons ago, so ... you're welcome.)
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Chomsky. I can't remember ever disagreeing with Greenwald - not even on puppies.
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Right. Me either. The point is, Glenn's oeuvre is one long kvetch of disapproval -- just like Chomsky's.
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Also, Chomsky describes himself as a libertarian socialist, which like saying you're a anaerobic oxygen breather.
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And this proves his point. Americans have a very narrow view of what "libertarian" means (as well as "socialism"). Just look at all the flavors. A term like "joint-ownership left-libertarianism" might also sound oxymoronic, until you realize it's the animating feature of "free market" (sic) arrangements like catch shares.
I probably qualify as a libertarian socialist too, though I eschew labels because they never seem to cover all the ground with adequate precision. I'm pretty sure your BFF Glenn fits this description as well, but he never writes about economics so it's hard to tell. (I think he has said unkind things about policymakers who shoot down domestic spending.) And I have a feeling your other BFF (sic*) Assange is a rather complicated case himself. Probably not an oxymoron to say he is some kind of a fascist libertarian: "So as far as markets are concerned I’m a libertarian, but I have enough expertise in politics and history to understand that a free market ends up as monopoly unless you force them to be free."
*I think you can have only one BFF.
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10-24-2011, 10:49 AM
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#29
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I Live Here
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Quote:
Philboid Studge wrote
Can't agree with that. Noam has derided Obama (especially on foreign policy and civil liberties) since before the 2008 election.
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The point is that he acknowledges the spin of the two parties but then continues to collude in the shared delusion.
Quote:
Philboid Studge wrote
I think he's absolutely right. American (or perhaps we should say North American) libertarianism centers on economic freedom. True or false?
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False. I think most voters have some libertarian leanings, but the big six media (who I believe are part of the 147) choose to promote the 'truck nut' version and for good reason - Libertarianism is as threatening to centralized political power as atheism is to religion.
Again, Noam acknowledges the tremendous bias of the US press, but can't transcend it. Maybe he's lazy.
Quote:
Philboid Studge wrote
Right. Me either. The point is, Glenn's oeuvre is one long kvetch of disapproval -- just like Chomsky's.
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Glenn's focus is US politics about which he is consistently critical. Given that our system hasn't changed much in the last 40 years, it's actually a narrow area of discontent. Noam on the other hand, is critical of everything, to the point where it's not clear he has any vision of what he regards as good.
Quote:
Philboid Studge wrote
I probably qualify as a libertarian socialist too
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Oh good! You can explain how that works then cause I'm pretty sure libertarian and alleged fascist, Victus, thinks there is no overlap.
I would call myself a left leaning libertarian in the sense that my focus is very much on corporate welfare. I think roads and adc are so small that it really isn't worth worrying about.
Quote:
Philboid Studge wrote
*I think you can have only one BFF.
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Well...at any given moment, like serial monogamy.
Never give a zombie girl a piggy back ride.
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10-24-2011, 10:53 AM
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#30
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I Live Here
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Oh! And thank you for the Noam link.
Never give a zombie girl a piggy back ride.
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