Ayn Rand

[The Judge]

HMS Beagle wrote

Yes, I agree: pure selflessness probably doesn't exist. Even apparently selfless acts, like organ donation, probably have an element-- perhaps subconscious-- of self-interest. But I hope you agree that such acts are still worthy of the word selfless.

And we agree on the stake. Would that we could drive it through the sterile hearts of Ayn Rand's heirs, rather than just this posting.

One of the few truly selfless acts is lemming suicide. Rather this is a purely altruistic act, but then seeing as lemmings don't a concept of the self per se, the analogy is not a perfect one. Regardless, acts of altruism do exist in the animal kingdom where a parent will sacrifice itself in order to proect it's young. Hunman beings have this urge too, but it is tempered with problem solving, guilt, shame, love, personality schemas, consequentialism etc etc etc.
If anyone's interested, e.g. in the story of Sophies Choice, roles reversed, I'd have gone to die with my children so they wouldn't have been so afraid in that gas chamber.

[Tenspace]

From Wikipedia: Lemming populations go through rapid growths and subsequent crashes that have achieved an almost legendary status, largely because of the well-known Disney Studios film, White Wilderness, which was produced in 1958 and reappeared on television at regular intervals for many years afterwards. White Wilderness popularized, using staged footage, the myth that during population booms Norway Lemmings become suicidal and leap en masse off cliffs into the sea.

In fact, the behavior of lemmings is much the same as that of many other rodents which have periodic population booms and then disperse in all directions, seeking the food and shelter that their natural habitat cannot provide. (The Australian Long-haired Rat is one example.)

Disney is yet another example of a mind-warping cult. Look what they did to The Judge. :D

Tenspace

[The Judge]

Tenspace wrote

From Wikipedia: Lemming populations go through rapid growths and subsequent crashes that have achieved an almost legendary status, largely because of the well-known Disney Studios film, White Wilderness, which was produced in 1958 and reappeared on television at regular intervals for many years afterwards. White Wilderness popularized, using staged footage, the myth that during population booms Norway Lemmings become suicidal and leap en masse off cliffs into the sea.

In fact, the behavior of lemmings is much the same as that of many other rodents which have periodic population booms and then disperse in all directions, seeking the food and shelter that their natural habitat cannot provide. (The Australian Long-haired Rat is one example.)

Disney is yet another example of a mind-warping cult. Look what they did to The Judge. :D

Tenspace

You're right Tenspace, I can't believe I've laboured under that delusion for so long! Thanx for the info. I guess it just goes to show how people can sometimes think something is true without having all the facts to hand. Admittedly the behaviour of lemmings has little bearing on my life, but it is still reassuring to be corrected and nice to learn something new. Incidentally, I haven't actually seen that Disney film nevertheless, I guess my assuptions probably stemmed from this popular urban myth and were reinforced by the eponymous and popular Amiga game.:D

Still, I'm sure there are some truly altruistic acts in the world of animal behaviour. Will hopefully post back soon...

All I really have to say about Ayn Rand is that her philosophies terrify me. They are very complex and logical for the most part, but I can't help but fight the feeling that if everyone adopted these philosophies people would rationalize just about anything in their own self interest. When one attempts to quanitfy concepts such as altruism, one is dropped onto an ongoing loop of arguments that can only be described as Uroboros. I beleive that these things can only be qualified at the individual level with intense scrutiny and as much honesty as is possible. Perhaps this is why there is the manifestation of the intangible conscience as a tangible force. It enters into this plane of rationization that takes place in the mind and becomes an arbiter, the theory being that forms similar to the conscience exist independent of the human. Shortly before Nietzsche died he saw a man flogging a horse in the street. His feelings of empathy and compassion (of which he discounts in much of his writings as vestigial byproducts that are not generative to the pure scientific logical structure of which he beleives is the only path for human progress) were so great that he ran out into the street to save the horse. Shortly after he went crazy.

[Tenspace]

The Judge wrote

You're right Tenspace, I can't believe I've laboured under that delusion for so long! Thanx for the info. I guess it just goes to show how people can sometimes think something is true without having all the facts to hand. Admittedly the behaviour of lemmings has little bearing on my life, but it is still reassuring to be corrected and nice to learn something new. Incidentally, I haven't actually seen that Disney film nevertheless, I guess my assuptions probably stemmed from this popular urban myth and were reinforced by the eponymous and popular Amiga game.:D

Still, I'm sure there are some truly altruistic acts in the world of animal behaviour. Will hopefully post back soon...

heheh.... you shoulda seen the stink when someone said, "we only use 10% of our brains."

Another good debunk site is snopes.com. I've learned to exorcise quite a few childhood memes there.

Ten

Tenspace wrote

heheh.... you shoulda seen the stink when someone said, "we only use 10% of our brains."

Another good debunk site is snopes.com. I've learned to exorcise quite a few childhood memes there.

Ten

My man, with the Salvidor Dali up in here. That is an annoying urban myth...I wish I could consciously use the part of my brain that regulates my blood pressure. That would be a fun task.
:)

I used to believe that water went counterclockwise down the drain in the nothern hemisphere. Oh well.

[Tenspace]

nthn200 wrote

My man, with the Salvidor Dali up in here. That is an annoying urban myth...I wish I could consciously use the part of my brain that regulates my blood pressure. That would be a fun task.
:)

Actually, you can, kind of. Meditative states will reduce your blood pressure. So, next time you go to the doctor, get yourself all worked-up first. Think about whatever it takes to piss you off. Let him take a reading while you're steamed. Then, relax your mind, breathe slowly, and use whatever meditative technique works for you. In five minutes I can go from 160 over 90 to 120 over 70.

Freaked out my nurse last time I tried it. :)

Tenspace

[Tenspace]

Another brick in the wall wrote

I used to believe that water went counterclockwise down the drain in the nothern hemisphere. Oh well.

I used to believe that the rising hot air is what caused the shower curtain to lift inward. Snopes taught me (or was it Straight Dope?) that it's actually a horizontal vortex that provides the lift component. :)

Tenspace

Ayn Rand, or potato-face as I like to refer to her, had a talent for catchy phrases. Otherwise her epistemology and metaphysics are absurd, her political economics are self-contradictory (because she was pro-capitalist and pro-State) and her personal history is hilarious.
I also dislike this ban on ad-hominems. It's true that unrelated personal attacks do not refute an argument, but there's no reason you can't refute someone's argument and go on to make unrelated personal attacks. Personal behaviour is not sacrosanct, and I have just as much a right to make fun of your relationships as I do your religious beliefs.

Tenspace wrote

Actually, you can, kind of. Meditative states will reduce your blood pressure. So, next time you go to the doctor, get yourself all worked-up first. Think about whatever it takes to piss you off. Let him take a reading while you're steamed. Then, relax your mind, breathe slowly, and use whatever meditative technique works for you. In five minutes I can go from 160 over 90 to 120 over 70.

Freaked out my nurse last time I tried it. :)

Tenspace

Yeah, that's true. But you know what I'm talking about.