Christian Intellectual Monk refutes Lily - who is mad now?

[Broga]

Lily regards me as a clinically mad nutter who, by some weird accident has strayed on to this site, as is regarded as crazy by lots of people here. Lily, of course, is a meideval scholar who has the certainty of her faith, and cannot be wrong.

I decided to do a bit of reading: recent brain research into why people believe and this led me into some interesting history which I followed up from the many references. I was curious as to why there was such similarity, across so many saints and mystics, across so many eras. Strangely, even scientists such as Einstein, Bohm, and many others made comments which seemed similar to this ground of being thing. The fact is that all religious belief is grounded in the working of the human mind - nothing to do with Lily and her grisly Pope and personal God.

For example, and it is one of a great many, Thomas Merton, a trappist monk and revered for his openess to ideas, intellectual brilliance and phenomenal knowledge of religion, makes his abhorrence of revealed religion clear in Zen and the Birds of Appetite. He also writes that contemporary christian beliefs are little more than politics, hopelessly wrong and "....... were never less open." His comments on christians "invoking the name of Christ, are ravaging a small native country with napalm and dynamite, and doing their best to reduce whole areas of the country to a state of lifelessness." (Page 16 Lily under the chapter "The New Consciousness" in my book - Copyright The Abbey of Gethesemani inc.

Merton also says that the early christians had a belief and faith utterly different to the Lily's of today. He states explicity that if he had to chose he would choose Zen (or the Tao) over christianity.

I could say much more, quote many more references eg Meister Eckhart, but I perhaps Lily could help out on the interpretation first and put us right.

PS Lil. I have read the strained and unconvincing re interpretations on Merton, Eckhart and co by fundie hacks already so no plagiarism please.

Take an aspirin and go to bed. You are having one of your spells!

Thomas Merton was a great man, a great writer, and a fine Christian with a burning desire for justice and peace. You would greatly benefit from actually reading him, instead of about him and instead of trying to start some sort of silly argument about ... well what? Who can make heads or tails of what you write?

[Broga]

Lily wrote

Take an aspirin and go to bed. You are having one of your spells!

Thomas Merton was a great man, a great writer, and a fine Christian with a burning desire for justice and peace. You would greatly benefit from actually reading him, instead of about him and instead of trying to start some sort of silly argument about ... well what? Who can make heads or tails of what you write?

You really are contemptible. Let us see whether I have read Thomas Merton. Or, more to the point let us discover whether you have read him or, as usual, know fuck all and are terrified of being exposed. Here is what I have read:

Zen and the Birds of Appetite.



Merton was an admirer and friend of D.T. Suzuki: I refer you to page 59 of Zen and the Birds of Appetite where the chapter is headed D.T. Suzuki: The Man and his Work and page 99 The Wisdom of Emptyness a dialologue DT Suzuki and Thomas Merton.

Now what have you read you sanctimonious, ignorant bigot. I have called your bluff. Either answer or shut up.

You know Lily, I find you more repellant than I ever thought was possible. It is one thing to be ignorant and bigotted. It is another to accuse someone else of being that when you know as well as I do that you are bluffing. You are a liar. I don't want an argument. I want a discussion. A debate. However, I am delighted to have embarrassed you yet again.

And I haven't finished. I intend to start on a book about Chuang Tzu. I like some of the quotes which relate to you so I shall return.

actually he seems pretty clear to me.

[Broga]

Rocketman the Sequel wrote

actually he seems pretty clear to me.

Thank you, sir. And admirably concise.

Broga, I'm impressed that this has spurred you so much as to start quoting exact page references to quotations from Merton's related literature. It's a very interesting topic, I think I'm going to order some of these texts you've been reading from Amazon myself.

crest wrote

Broga, I'm impressed that this has spurred you so much as to start quoting exact page references to quotations from Merton's related literature. It's a very interesting topic, I think I'm going to order some of these texts you've been reading from Amazon myself.

Depending on your interests, you might want to start with his autobiography, The Seven Storey Mountain. It is has long since attained the status of "classic" and, in my opinion, deservedly so. It is also a fascinating look at 40s and 50s America. I most remember the bits around his years at Columbia where he hung out with some of the intellectual leading lights of the age.

The book that I find most memorable is "Conjectures of a Guilty Bystander". It has the honor of being the only book that was ever stolen from me-- I had left it on the front seat of my car for a mere 10 or so minutes and when I got back it was gone. I have read one or two other things but that was eons ago and I don't remember what. It has been fully 30 years since I read anything at all by him. I am not particularly drawn to his poetry or the more contemplative stuff, though others think that is where he is at his finest.

He was, profoundly, a monk; a contemplative and his work reflects this. He was a pretty severe critic of our involvement in Viet Nam and he did love Eastern contemplative religions because he, himself, was a contemplative. Broga was, apparently, hoping (who can tell for sure? If you all understand what he wants, feel free to clue me in) I would go all ballistic over him because he did get a little squishy towards the end of his life. But that, I am afraid, just isn't enough to earn him many demerits. He is still enormously popular-- there are centers and institutes named after him, you can visit his abbey and I don't think a single one of his books has gone out of print.

[Broga]

crest wrote

Broga, I'm impressed that this has spurred you so much as to start quoting exact page references to quotations from Merton's related literature. It's a very interesting topic, I think I'm going to order some of these texts you've been reading from Amazon myself.

Crest. I do not think you will be disappointed. I think Thomas Merton, whom I had not read before, is an exemplary example of the most open minded christians. (I am an atheist but with, I hope, an open mind to learning where ever I may). Here are the books I have ordered and I do recommend the first:

Zen and the Birds of Appetite - A New Directions Paperback NDP261 By Thomas Merton.

The Tao is Silent by Raymond M Smullyan (This makes for easy reading as the essays are short and Smullyan (an internationally renowned mathematician) is admirably honest. I like the essay on gardening (I don't like gardening either); and dogs (he likes them and I do) but most of all I delight in his comments on morality and right and wrong. Well worth a read. I have just finished this one.

Zen and Zen Classics: Volume Two. History of Zen by R.H.Blyth. Blyth is a brilliant writer and I first heard of him as a result of his writing on poetry (Wordsworth). This book might be a bit confusing if you come straight at it without having done a fair bit of previous reading on Zen.

When the Shoe Fits: Stories of the Taoist Mystic Chuang Tzu written, with commentary by OSHO. Published by WATKINS PUBLISHING, London. I have just started this and it has some wonderful comments on the death-in-life of religious belief: Page 8. on moralistic puritans and quotes Chuang Tzu who is a rebel and this book would need a bottle of aspirins should Lily read it.

The Tao Te Ching (Lao Tzu) in Wordsworth Classics is short and interesting with a brilliant introduction by Robert Wilkinson, Senior Lecturer in Philosophy at the OU.

Most of this is new to me and I hope you find the journey of exploration as fascinating as I do. Good luck with the reading. I have had to put the Poisonwood Bible (recommended by another poster here) on hold.

[Broga]

Lily wrote

Depending on your interests, you might want to start with his autobiography, The Seven Storey Mountain. It is has long since attained the status of "classic" and, in my opinion, deservedly so. It is also a fascinating look at 40s and 50s America. I most remember the bits around his years at Columbia where he hung out with some of the intellectual leading lights of the age.

The book that I find most memorable is "Conjectures of a Guilty Bystander". It has the honor of being the only book that was ever stolen from me-- I had left it on the front seat of my car for a mere 10 or so minutes and when I got back it was gone. I have read one or two other things but that was eons ago and I don't remember what. It has been fully 30 years since I read anything at all by him. I am not particularly drawn to his poetry or the more contemplative stuff, though others think that is where he is at his finest.

He was, profoundly, a monk; a contemplative and his work reflects this. He was a pretty severe critic of our involvement in Viet Nam and he did love Eastern contemplative religions because he, himself, was a contemplative. Broga was, apparently, hoping (who can tell for sure? If you all understand what he wants, feel free to clue me in) I would go all ballistic over him because he did get a little squishy towards the end of his life. But that, I am afraid, just isn't enough to earn him many demerits. He is still enormously popular-- there are centers and institutes named after him, you can visit his abbey and I don't think a single one of his books has gone out of print.

Lily. What amazes me is that you seem to have read some of his work without understanding. Of course he was a monk. We knew that. But then, this is ever the way with fundies. They read, they select, and they fail to extract the meaning. I suppose you apply the same selectivity that you do to that knave of a Pope. And how could anyone trust your judgement when you defend the nonsense in the Bible.

Pity you had to deride Thomas Merton at the end with "squishy". Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Leave him alone.

Bitch!

[Philboid Studge]

Broga wrote

You know Lily, I find you more repellant than I ever thought was possible.

Aw, she's not so bad. An acquired taste perhaps, as with toe cheese and magic crackers, but "repellant"? Well maybe a little. Anyway is this any way for a zen practitioner to react? Remember: your god is so much more powerful than hers that It need not exist at all.

[ghoulslime]

Broga wrote

You really are contemptible. Let us see whether I have read Thomas Merton. Or, more to the point let us discover whether you have read him or, as usual, know fuck all and are terrified of being exposed. Here is what I have read:

Zen and the Birds of Appetite.



Merton was an admirer and friend of D.T. Suzuki: I refer you to page 59 of Zen and the Birds of Appetite where the chapter is headed D.T. Suzuki: The Man and his Work and page 99 The Wisdom of Emptyness a dialologue DT Suzuki and Thomas Merton.

Now what have you read you sanctimonious, ignorant bigot. I have called your bluff. Either answer or shut up.

You know Lily, I find you more repellant than I ever thought was possible. It is one thing to be ignorant and bigotted. It is another to accuse someone else of being that when you know as well as I do that you are bluffing. You are a liar. I don't want an argument. I want a discussion. A debate. However, I am delighted to have embarrassed you yet again.

And I haven't finished. I intend to start on a book about Chuang Tzu. I like some of the quotes which relate to you so I shall return.

I can assure you, sir, Lily has always been more repellant than anybody ever thought was possible. However, you must admire the sheer scale of her crazy. It's like coming across a homeless guy who has made a pee-smelling palace / shelter out of feces, cardboard, and old syringes. It is disturbing, but you still have to say, "fucking awesome, dude!"

[Broga]

ghoulslime. Yup, that is so. But she is such a gut churning, puke forming piece of shit. And dangerous. Imagine this vicious hag in charge of kids? And being half crazy she never gives up. She has no self respect. No amount of abuse, contempt or disgust stops her. She will lie, twist, deny to serve her purpose. They must have got into her head at an early age.

Note her method with Thomas Merton. She calls him "squishy" at the end when the guy was dying. This is also a means of using his decline as an excuse when he is off message i.e. has the sheer fucking impudence to think. Have you ever heard her criticise the Pope? Squishy? The Pope is a major diaster to the planet who has a record in Hitler Youth. Lily, of course, sticks to a few references to Thomas Merton and that is what she suggests the curious should read. She does not suggest they might read more widely, be interested in, for example, Richard Dawkins and perhaps learn something even if they detest him. I, on the other hand, am quite ready to read Christian writers - if they offer something of interest - and I hope I may learn something. Not Lily. She is stuck. She knows the lot.

Merton was a bit of a fan of Meister Eckhart, a mystic, and Eckhart was lucky not to end up on a fire from verging from the Papal Path.

Imagine living in Lily's mind. She reminds me of these guys they used to hang in a cage from a castle and they couldn't even stretch their limbs. Lily lives in a suffocating, superstitious sewer and I think she is too terrified to explore anything as she senses the whole thing is utter crap.

Now what are you on about? Merton was accidentally electrocuted in Thailand. He was a man in his prime or just slightly past it and in full possession of his senses. Since I think highly of the man, heaven alone knows what is going through your mind.

I can't see any point in trying to communicate on any level with you. So I will no longer bother. You don't need me, in any case, to spew the sort of hate-filled drivel you are spewing, since there is an appreciative audience for it among the morally stunted here.

[Waddlie]

Oh dear. Back to the "I'm not talking to you anymore" thing again. When Lily starts flailing it's like watching an octopus fighting off a swarm of bees. You've never seen anything else like it, and you don't know whether to laugh or cry.