Fine tuning rebut

[Sternwallow]

West491 wrote

...
Are you saying that if we (all 6 billion+ of us) weren't here, then an outside observer (outside of this universe ?) , let's call him Bob, would look at our universe and say "That universe is not fine-tuned." Therefore for us to say that the universe is fine tuned is just as plausible as Bob's saying that the universe is not fine tuned. I'm kinda lost here.

The term "fine tuning" introduces a hidden implication that whatever it is was chosen, by a conscious entity, to satisfy a purpose or a goal. The term arose from an attempt to reason from the current state backward to that "first cause".

If you throw a vase on the floor, you probably wanted it to smash, but if it slipped out of your hand and smashed, that was probably not intentional. Someone coming on the scene after you leave has no reasonable way to guess whether the breakage was on purpose or not. This is why we cannot consider outcomes as goals of their causes, especially if those causes are not likely to have been conscious.

We say that evolution has no goal because, like most physical processes, there is no predictive or forward-looking aspect in its operation and no sign of intentional direction toward any particular outcome. Pat Robertson is emphatically not the absolute pinnacle of human evolution.

The fine tuning question invalidly reverses cause and effect.

Does a tree fall in the forest because it wants to make an unheard sound?

My point is that the values of the fundamental physical parameters were not freely chosen with the goal of a big complex universe or life or humanity or even Joe Pesci.

[Sternwallow]

PanAtheist wrote

If a very-special-super-living-being could fix the constants of reality, why would it have cosmic evolution, stellar evolution, planetary evolution, and biological evolution work to bring humans about, and not just fix humans straight into existence? (And any very-special-super-living-being who uses natural selection to create living things is an utter cunt/bastard).

You here hint at the synthetic past question: "Perhaps the whole universe, everything we can see, was created in an instant just 15 minutes ago, complete with all of our memories and records and radioisotopes in the ground."

And not forgetting the basics : a very-special-super-living-being who establishes the constants of reality so life is possible. It don't make sense sir. Life reproduces, develops, and grows - it doesn't create itself. That would be silly.

I don't know if Dr. Frankenstein's self-made time traveling student would agree.

There would be nothing to rebut except that it is accepted by some famously powerful thinkers-with-blinkers.

[ghoulslime]

Sternwallow wrote

Ah, you missed ze central clue; zis iz Pistachio Pi, mon ami.

Lah! Divine and rapturous epiphany!

[ghoulslime]

Sternwallow wrote

You here hint at the synthetic past question: "Perhaps the whole universe, everything we can see, was created in an instant just 15 minutes ago, complete with all of our memories and records and radioisotopes in the ground."
I don't know if Dr. Frankenstein's self-made time traveling student would agree.

There would be nothing to rebut except that it is accepted by some famously powerful thinkers-with-blinkers.

Sometime soon, a little boy's mother will tell him to go to bed, and then he will turn off his computer, and this will all be gone.

[Sternwallow]

ghoulslime wrote

Sometime soon, a little boy's mother will tell him to go to bed, and then he will turn off his computer, and this will all be gone.

Only to spring into being once again when he begins to dream.

G' nite.

[ghoulslime]

Sternwallow wrote

Only to spring into being once again when he begins to dream.

G' nite.

Sleep tight!

May the Leprechauns bless and keep you. (by the way, the leprechauns prefer you to leave the fly of your 'jammies open a little if possible)

[Sternwallow]

ghoulslime wrote

Sleep tight!

May the Leprechauns bless and keep you. (by the way, the leprechauns prefer you to leave the fly of your 'jammies open a little if possible)

How charming. I suppose they want to hear the lice screaming.

[PanAtheist]

Pages made to wallow in!





http://www.amazon.com/Fallacy-Fine-Tuning-Why-Universe-Designed/

[Sternwallow]

Nice catch, Pan. It is immediately on order, thanks.

[Andrew66]

PanAtheist wrote

If a very-special-super-living-being could fix the constants of reality, why would it have cosmic evolution, stellar evolution, planetary evolution, and biological evolution work to bring humans about, and not just fix humans straight into existence?

I have what you will likely think is a convoluted explanation why a God may have gone the "long way" in creating us, which is consistent with a Thestic view.

Assuming a God exists...
I think you'd agree that God has purposively set up the world so there is no proof that he played a hand in it. In other words, God wants to remain hidden amidst naturalism.
Why would God do this you ask?? Because if we (humans, intelligent life) knew for certain a God - or personal creator existed (i.e. such as if we were fixed straight from existence), we would be inclined to perform good works not because we are truly good and noble but because we want to gain favor with this powerful being - our creator. This condition would rob human kind of the opportunity to be noble, unselfish and altruistic - charateristics worth preservation.

[ILOVEJESUS]

Andrew66 wrote

I have what you will likely think is a convoluted explanation why a God may have gone the "long way" in creating us, which is consistent with a Thestic view.

Assuming a God exists...
I think you'd agree that God has purposively set up the world so there is no proof that he played a hand in it. In other words, God wants to remain hidden amidst naturalism.
Why would God do this you ask?? Because if we (humans, intelligent life) knew for certain a God - or personal creator existed (i.e. such as if we were fixed straight from existence), we would be inclined to perform good works not because we are truly good and noble but because we want to gain favor with this powerful being - our creator. This condition would rob human kind of the opportunity to be noble, unselfish and altruistic - charateristics worth preservation.

Claptrap and horse shit. God would want us to not know he exists, but still have an inkling in case we go to hell, or don't get good Karma, what is the difference? God wants us to take a punt he exists based on nothing but faith, because that will make me noble? By your methods I can be a strong atheist and pick up all the glory anyway for being a nice guy, perfect world then, I can't lose, fuck you Pascal!!!!

[Andrew66]

ILOVEJESUS wrote

God wants us to take a punt he exists based on nothing but faith, because that will make me noble? By your methods I can be a strong atheist and pick up all the glory anyway for being a nice guy, perfect world then!

I think you got it!

If you knew God existed for sure - his eyes on you at every moment, and you were aware that you'd better be good and obey him else you would be in serious trouble - you would likely become like a Stepford wife my son! The condiition of knowing God exists for sure would place us in a state of slavery - and we would do good works largely only to protect ourselves - hence it would be hard if not impossible to be noble and altruistic.

So I agree - by the aforementioned you can be a strong Atheist and be a nice guy - and yes by my methods you can thereby achieve an enjoy nobility and altruism (or pick up all the glory !!!! as you've stated) Indeed, an Atheist doing a nice thing - clearly not for reward from God, is an extra special and honorable thing beyond what religious folk are capable.

One can imagine many positions

1) Knowledge of God (bad thing - loose capacity to be noble or altruistic)
2) Faith in God (compromise - can still be noble and altruistic because one is not sure God exists, and still have a glimmer of belief in God reap the benefits of such belief)
3) Lack of Belief in God (good thing in one retains capacity to be noble or altruistic, but not a good thing as one cannot reap the benefits whch come by having a belief in God)

Condition (2) and (3) work to preserve nobility and altruism, but condition (1) does not. That's all I was saying on this post, the reason God does not make his presence clear is to avoid condition (1). Why condition (2) may be preferred over condition (3) is a completely other debate.

I don't think we are in disagreement?.

[nkb]

So, let me get this straight: True believers, on the occasions that they are being good, are doing it out of purely self-serving reasons?

[Andrew66]

nkb wrote

So, let me get this straight: True believers, on the occasions that they are being good, are doing it out of purely self-serving reasons?

Not purely, but partly. It is sort of a compromise position.

On an aside I bet there aren't many pure or strong believers outthere anyway. I suspect that most professed Christians or Muslims actually only Hope that God exists, and are far from being absolutely sure about it. They would deny this of course, even to themselves.

[ILOVEJESUS]

Andrew66 wrote

I think you got it!

If you knew God existed for sure - his eyes on you at every moment, and you were aware that you'd better be good and obey him else you would be in serious trouble - you would likely become like a Stepford wife my son! The condiition of knowing God exists for sure would place us in a state of slavery - and we would do good works largely only to protect ourselves - hence it would be hard if not impossible to be noble and altruistic.

So I agree - by the aforementioned you can be a strong Atheist and be a nice guy - and yes by my methods you can thereby achieve an enjoy nobility and altruism (or pick up all the glory !!!! as you've stated) Indeed, an Atheist doing a nice thing - clearly not for reward from God, is an extra special and honorable thing beyond what religious folk are capable.

One can imagine many positions

1) Knowledge of God (bad thing - loose capacity to be noble or altruistic)
2) Faith in God (compromise - can still be noble and altruistic because one is not sure God exists, and still have a glimmer of belief in God reap the benefits of such belief)
3) Lack of Belief in God (good thing in one retains capacity to be noble or altruistic, but not a good thing as one cannot reap the benefits whch come by having a belief in God)

Condition (2) and (3) work to preserve nobility and altruism, but condition (1) does not. That's all I was saying on this post, the reason God does not make his presence clear is to avoid condition (1). Why condition (2) may be preferred over condition (3) is a completely other debate.

I don't think we are in disagreement?.

Great news. Well I don't believe the fucker exists anyway, but that doesn't matter, because if it did I would still get my goodies for behaving well. End of this thread then.
PS. you may also have said that God doesn't show himself.....at all,.. is because there is no God.