Just Curious

[Michael]

Egor wrote

There is only God. It's the only thing that exists. It wasn't created; it simply always has been, in one singular eternal moment.

Now you may not be able to picture that in your head; I only catch glimpses of it myself. But think about it this way: If anything exists outside of time, such as a mind existing before the Big Bang, it isn't affected by time. That means it cannot have a beginning. That means it simply is--eternally. It simply exists in an eternal present moment.

And that's not so hard to conceive of. Isn't it the way it is for us, too, even in the physical world? Isn't it true that the past is gone forever and the future has never happened? Don't we, as a mind, live in an eternal present moment?

I have asked this on these forums before, and I'll ask it again. If you need to have something as being "uncreated" to make things right, why is it that you're allowed to make that thing god, but the universe isn't granted the same priviledge? By saying the universe can't have been "not created" therefore a god must exist is just adding an extra step and making things more complicated than they need to be.

I heard an argument once that some of the things you said remind me of, which I'd like to try to re-state hear. Now, bear in mind I'm no philosopher or scientist so my portrayal probably won't be elegant or complete. But I'd like to give it a go.

Time and Space exist together. Without something to to observe time, time is irrelevant. If we take the view that there was nothing before the "big bang", then there was nothing to observe time. We can, then, confer that as far as being observable the universe has always existed.


Now, if we say "Aha! but god exists outside of our space, therefore he was observing and the universe had a beginning! Yes! Score one for the away team!", that's fine, but then you've added a whole lot of problems. Where does this god "exist" outside of everything? It can't exist in nothing, otherwise it is nothing. Nothing with something in it is something. So then how did this something come about? God can't have created it, he/she is in it. It must have been created, once again, by an external source. And so it goes.


So the addition of a god only serves to make this equation far more complicated than it need be. If you need something to be "uncreated" in order for things to make sense to you, it is best to allow the universe to be that and make things a whole lot cleaner.

[Michael]

Also, because I found this funny.

Egor wrote

First off, God is not an object. An object would have to be like a subset of a larger set. There is no larger set. There is only God. It's the only thing that exists. It wasn't created; it simply always has been, in one singular eternal moment.

(this time from dictionary.com)

thing
noun
1.
a material object without life or consciousness; an inanimate object.
2.
some entity, object, or creature that is not or cannot be specifically designated or precisely described: The stick had a brass thing on it.
3.
anything that is or may become an object of thought: things of the spirit.
4.
things, matters; affairs: Things are going well now.
5.
a fact, circumstance, or state of affairs: It is a curious thing.

[Irreligious]

Gordon, your post #25 in completely incomprehensible. Anyway, aren't you a First Baptist, like you told Lily three years ago? When did the Baptists start teaching what you're here preaching to us now?

[Egor]

West491 wrote

How are you aware of an event that took place outside of spacetime? Because, you see, if it is true that God exists outside of spacetime, there is no way for us to know it because we exist inside of spacetime.

I’m not aware of it; I contemplate it. You are correct: There is no way for us to know about God as he exists outside of the physical universe until, that is, we come to the fruition of our consciousness, which is the consciousness of God. But I’d be very surprised if that’s actually possible for a human being to do while alive in the physical world.

Having said that, it’s not that hard to contemplate an eternal present moment as it existed before the universe began. I believe the reason we can do that is because we have the capability of developing a god-consciousness. I don’t think any other animal can contemplate that (Granted, I don’t know another animal can’t, but I doubt it.).

Sternwallow wrote

For several reasons, including but not limited to the fact that atheism is not a world view, atheism has no position on the question of whether the universe was created or not.

Well, let’s talk about that then. If we go all the way back to the singularity before the big bang, and even if we go back to before there was a physical singularity, why would anything come into existence if it were not willed in some way into existence? The simplest answer is that there must be some causative agent that wanted it to occur. It wouldn’t just happen for no reason at all. It wouldn’t just pop into existence for nothing out of nothing. To consider that so is magical thinking. It’s easier to suppose some kind of intelligent creator.

How, do you suppose, the universe, has a companion realm, part of it outside, without the universe being exactly the subset that you said was not possible for god?

The universe would, in fact, be an object. God would be the ultimate set and the universe would be a subset of God.

"god did it" explains nothing, proves nothing, simplifies nothing.

You’re asking for more than you can handle. You don’t even believe in God, so trying to figure out the motivations or dynamics of God is pointless. Only a believer can do that. What I’m saying is that it’s the simplest possible solution that could give us a universe. That is that an intelligent willful agent caused the universe to begin.

Michael wrote

I have asked this on these forums before, and I'll ask it again. If you need to have something as being "uncreated" to make things right, why is it that you're allowed to make that thing god, but the universe isn't granted the same priviledge? By saying the universe can't have been "not created" therefore a god must exist is just adding an extra step and making things more complicated than they need to be.

Good point. Why does God get to be uncreated, but the universe has to be created by something. Simply put, the universe shows evidence of having had a beginning, or if it always existed, it has motion, and that requires a prime mover (something that is itself unmoved by anything else). This is all assumed because an infinite regress of causes results in nothing being caused. Assuming the existence of God, ultimately, keeps us from having to resort to magical thinking.

The big question is, of course, how could God just “be” without ever having been created. I propose that God cannot even answer that question. Like a limit in calculus, that answer is eternally approached but never resolved. I propose that God does not know why He exists. It is, in fact, impossible knowledge.

But that’s not really what’s at issue here. We’re debating the existence of God, we are not trying to figure out the dynamics of God. It does us no good to contemplate the dynamics if we don’t even believe God exists.

I heard an argument once that some of the things you said remind me of, which I'd like to try to re-state hear. Now, bear in mind I'm no philosopher or scientist so my portrayal probably won't be elegant or complete. But I'd like to give it a go.

Time and Space exist together. Without something to to observe time, time is irrelevant. If we take the view that there was nothing before the "big bang", then there was nothing to observe time. We can, then, confer that as far as being observable the universe has always existed.


Now, if we say "Aha! but god exists outside of our space, therefore he was observing and the universe had a beginning! Yes! Score one for the away team!", that's fine, but then you've added a whole lot of problems. Where does this god "exist" outside of everything? It can't exist in nothing, otherwise it is nothing. Nothing with something in it is something. So then how did this something come about? God can't have created it, he/she is in it. It must have been created, once again, by an external source. And so it goes.


So the addition of a god only serves to make this equation far more complicated than it need be. If you need something to be "uncreated" in order for things to make sense to you, it is best to allow the universe to be that and make things a whole lot cleaner.

I definitely feel your pain on this one. Unfortunately, the physical universe doesn’t fit the bill. It apparently had a beginning or was set in motion by some prime mover. However, God can’t exist somewhere “outside” the universe; I agree. That is why I do not believe in the Christian revelation of God. I believe, instead, in a monistic concept of God. That is that all that exists is God. There is nothing but God. There is no universe apart from God. There is no separation. Just like in a dream.

Tonight I’ll go to sleep and have a dream; I do every night. There will be people and things in that dream. There will be a sky, buildings, a street, gravity, light, wind, all of that, no doubt. But all of that will only be my mind. The mind of a man sleeping in a bed. The universe, therefore, is simply a thought God is having. Nothing more. We are characters in his imaginings, nothing more.

[Egor]

Irreligious wrote

Gordon, your post #25 in completely incomprehensible. Anyway, aren't you a First Baptist, like you told Lily three years ago? When did the Baptists start teaching what you're here preaching to us now?

Well, let's see here...apparently, I'm not Gordon; I'm not a First Baptist; therefore, I have no idea what Baptists are or are not preaching.

[Sternwallow]

I am counting Eyegore's post here #35 and his failure to answer my serious questions in the "curious" thread as fulfillment of the ten non-responses limit. I call bullshit and recommend quarantine for this obnoxious and mentally deficient worm.

[Smellyoldgit]

Sternwallow wrote

I am counting Eyegore's post here #35 and his failure to answer my serious questions in the "curious" thread as fulfillment of the ten non-responses limit. I call bullshit and recommend quarantine for this obnoxious and mentally deficient worm.

But isn’t this a feature of all passing retards? Anything requiring a degree of thoughtful analysis of their simple minded bullshit causes either a neuro-illogical meltdown, or activation of the very efficient sidestep/divert/ignore reflex?
We’ve had the first batch of stock responses – eternal, outside of time & space – I even think we touched on mysterious ways (though I admit to not paying too much attention to his crap) – but at least we haven’t had a heap of holey book quotes – yet!

The stasi will keep an eye on his wormology to make sure his slimey emissions don't spread too far and ruin the carpets.

[Kate]

Sternwallow wrote

My taste is very pedestrian; I would more likely have put on B's "Ode to Joy" #9, especially the part where it goes "ta, tata, ta, thump, ta, ta, tatata, long pause"

[Kate]

Egor wrote

Well, let's see here...apparently, I'm not Gordon; I'm not a First Baptist; therefore, I have no idea what Baptists are or are not preaching.

Although it would not surprise me if even the Baptists tossed him out of their house. This guy's naaaaaaaaaaasty.

[Kate]

Egor wrote

You are correct: There is no way for us to know about God

[Philboid Studge]

Michael wrote

...Nothing with something in it is something. ..

ex nihilo nihil fit old school funk

[Demigod79]

Egor wrote

I’m not aware of it; I contemplate it.

And how is that any different from imagining or guessing?

Egor wrote

Well, let’s talk about that then. If we go all the way back to the singularity before the big bang, and even if we go back to before there was a physical singularity, why would anything come into existence if it were not willed in some way into existence? The simplest answer is that there must be some causative agent that wanted it to occur. It wouldn’t just happen for no reason at all. It wouldn’t just pop into existence for nothing out of nothing. To consider that so is magical thinking. It’s easier to suppose some kind of intelligent creator.

There can be no cause and effect before the universe began; to even think of such a thing as "cause" before the beginning of the universe is gibberish. You are making the same mistake as every other theist who uses the cosmological argument, applying the laws of the universe before the universe existed.

Egor wrote

Good point. Why does God get to be uncreated, but the universe has to be created by something. Simply put, the universe shows evidence of having had a beginning, or if it always existed, it has motion, and that requires a prime mover (something that is itself unmoved by anything else). This is all assumed because an infinite regress of causes results in nothing being caused. Assuming the existence of God, ultimately, keeps us from having to resort to magical thinking.

You're avoiding the question. The question was, why should God be exempt from the illogical nature of an infinite regress? Why is it the case that an infinite God makes sense while an infinite universe doesn't?

You are basically making an exception of God, not applying the normal rules to him because he's a magical being that can avoid those rules.

Egor wrote

The big question is, of course, how could God just “be” without ever having been created. I propose that God cannot even answer that question. Like a limit in calculus, that answer is eternally approached but never resolved. I propose that God does not know why He exists. It is, in fact, impossible knowledge.

Then that's just an assumption. Basically, your position on this is pretty much summed up as "God exists without cause, but I don't know how", which is meaningless.

Egor wrote

I definitely feel your pain on this one. Unfortunately, the physical universe doesn’t fit the bill. It apparently had a beginning or was set in motion by some prime mover. However, God can’t exist somewhere “outside” the universe; I agree. That is why I do not believe in the Christian revelation of God. I believe, instead, in a monistic concept of God. That is that all that exists is God. There is nothing but God. There is no universe apart from God. There is no separation. Just like in a dream.

Equating existence with God is called pantheism, which most theists don't believe since it ultimately leads to atheism.

[Michael]

(note - I've added some numbers for easy reference. Read on to see why!)

Egor wrote

Well, let’s talk about that then. If we go all the way back to the singularity before the big bang, and even if we go back to before there was a physical singularity,3 why would anything come into existence if it were not willed in some way into existence? 4 The simplest answer is that there must be some causative agent that wanted it to occur. 5 It wouldn’t just happen for no reason at all.6 It wouldn’t just pop into existence for nothing out of nothing. 7 To consider that so is magical thinking. It’s easier to suppose some kind of intelligent creator.


1 The universe would, in fact, be an object. God would be the ultimate set and the universe would be a subset of God.


What I’m saying is that it’s the simplest possible solution that could give us a universe. That is that an intelligent willful agent caused the universe to begin.


The big question is, of course, how could God just “be” without ever having been created. I propose that God cannot even answer that question. Like a limit in calculus, that answer is eternally approached but never resolved. 8 I propose that God does not know why He exists. It is, in fact, impossible knowledge.


I definitely feel your pain on this one. Unfortunately, the physical universe doesn’t fit the bill. It apparently had a beginning or was set in motion by some prime mover. 3 However, God can’t exist somewhere “outside” the universe; I agree. That is why I do not believe in the Christian revelation of God. I believe, instead, in a monistic concept of God. That is that all that exists is God. There is nothing but God. There is no universe apart from God. There is no separation.

Tonight I’ll go to sleep and have a dream; I do every night. There will be people and things in that dream. There will be a sky, buildings, a street, gravity, light, wind, all of that, no doubt. But all of that will only be my mind. The mind of a man sleeping in a bed. 2 The universe, therefore, is simply a thought God is having. Nothing more. 9 We are characters in his imaginings, nothing more.

Okay, I think I get what you're trying to say, but unfortunately you do seem to be a little all over the place.
For my own clarification, this is what I'm getting from you:


So basically you seem to be saying that universe (and subsequently everything in the Universe) is God [1], and that we don't really exist beyond being a thought in god's head,[2] but god only exists inside the universe that he is thinking of[3]. For the same reason that I exist outside of my thoughts about food and sex. (Sure, I think of them, they are a part of me, but I exist outside of those thoughts), and since you have claimed that you believe nothing can exist outside of the universe[3], you imply that no god exists to "think" the universe into existance in the first place. And once again if he does, he has to exist somewhere. So where?




You then go on to say that whatever is thinking of this universe in a place that doesn't exist couldn't have come about without something causing it to exist [3, 4. 5]. I suppose you could get around this by saying that "god willed itself into existance before it even existed" [6 (oh yeah and see 7)], and would most likely then have a reason for why he/she/it did such, except God doesn't know why it exists [8], which would rule out itself as it's creator.

So we have a universe that doesn't actually exist [9], that is actually only a thought of a "god" that only exists inside it's own thoughts, but also exists enough to have internal thoughts in the first place, exists nowhere and had to be created, but didn't create itself, doesn't know why it was created but also can't have been created by something else because then we get infinite regress.




You're not making sense.

[Smellyoldgit]

[Michael]

Also

Assuming the existence of God, ultimately, keeps us from having to resort to magical thinking.

I'm not sure if you're aware of irony or not, but saying that to an atheist on an atheist website (where many would say that religion itself is the very definition of "magical thinking") may just take the cake.