Who is more likely to obey secular laws?

nkb · 12-06-2006, 11:08 PM

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find a thread on this.

I was recently reading an article in the Dallas Morning News about the child abuse inflicted by a Catholic priest and the subsequent cover-up by the Fort Worth diocese. After 19 months of legal proceedings by the two major papers in the area, the courts finally ruled that the diocese had to open up their records. These revealed the bishop's repeated attempts at keeping the priest's crimes secret, lying to police, media, and church followers, and the continued employment of the priest in question, despite all the allegations.
In secret memos to church officials, the bishop (who is now dead and would be rotting in hell, if it existed) tried to justify his actions, because he was protecting the church.

We have had numerous discussions with theists about morality (or lack of an absolute version) and what keeps atheists from going on crime sprees.

So, my question is, who is more likely to obey secular laws? The atheist, who has no god-given morality to fall back on, or the theist, with his biblical moral code, but with the "out" of confession?

The atheist believes he/she only has one life to live, so committing crimes and getting thrown in jail is pretty much a waste of one's time.
The theist believes that blissful eternal life awaits him/her at the end of this life, so what is 60-80 years compared to eternity? As long as you confess your sins at the end, and repent, you're in the clear.

But, what about these douchebags like the bishop, who believes he can break the laws, because he is acting in the interest of his church? How could you possibly get a person like that to act "morally", if they think that they are doing god's work?

Every time I read a story like this one, it gets me all twisted.

Victus · 12-06-2006, 11:18 PM

Someone did a study on this, I recall. Turns out atheists are way under-represented in the US prison system.

Eva · 12-07-2006, 05:01 AM

not that we want to be represented........

12-07-2006, 06:38 AM

Really -- like we've got to get working on that, or something...:)

When you're talking about higher-ranking members of the Catholic hierarchy, the problem is you've got guys who really think they've been appointed by God himself and are therefore above secular law, so it's yet another layer of arrogance and superiority. You see this in corporate culture, too, to some degree, but the exclusivity and apart-ness of Catholic hierarchical structure just adds tons more layers between these guys and reality.

Philboid Studge · 12-07-2006, 06:50 AM

It is a bit odd that Xians -- and any mouth-breather who's hot for the God of Abraham -- can even function in a democracy, which is antithetical to democratic principles. I suppose that's why you gotta keep 'em separated ...

HeathenLifer · 12-07-2006, 09:54 AM

Atheist definitely are more likely to follow secular laws, we're very much cause-and-effect type people.Critical thinkers are more likely to see reason for laws, and therfore uphold them (or be smart enough not to get cought when breaking them :nanner:)!

calpurnpiso · 12-07-2006, 10:57 AM

" Who is more likely to obey secular laws? "

The mentally healthy, aka atheists, that are INTELLIGENT enough to understand them not infected by the delusions that the religious psychosis disorder brings.

Choobus · 12-07-2006, 11:23 AM

perhaps atheists are just as likely as theists to commit crimes, but since they are not always retarded are far less likely to get caught. Or maybe theism is an utterly empty position as far as the way life is lived and exists only as a self interested organization that perpetuates itself for the interests of a few and has no actual effect on those who purport to be theists at all; then their representation is simply a reflection of a feeble attempt to recieve some sort of absolution once incarcerated. (Jeebus is very big with the parole boards).

Rhinoqulous · 12-07-2006, 11:41 AM

It all depends which laws we're talking about.... *cough*

Philboid Studge · 12-07-2006, 11:44 AM

Agreed. Some 'laws' are more like guidelines than actual rules ...

12-07-2006, 12:25 PM

Satan is the one that makes theists not obey the law. It's not really their fault.

12-07-2006, 12:35 PM

Um, I obey the natural and ethical laws, but secular laws I have to admit I obey when it's convenient to do so, or because it is too INconvenient not to do so. I won't steal or murder because they're ethical and moral laws more than secular ones. But if I'm sitting at a redlight at 5a.m. and no owe is around (which often happens to me, by the way), I just run the damned thing rather than sit obediently waiting all by myself for it to turn green. I pay my taxes because, despite what the IRS says about ours being a voluntary tax system (ha!), if one fails to pay his taxes then jack-booted thugs with firearms bash down your door and haul you and your belongings away. I speed when I think I can get away with it, and I usually do... I guess I'm what you'd call an ethical scofflaw, if that makes any sense. If I see no sense to a stupid law and it's inconvenient for me to do otherwise, I'll break it...sometimes just to stay in practice and to remind myself that I own me, not the government.

12-11-2006, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Rhinoqulous wrote

It all depends which laws we're talking about.... *cough*

true... true...

...What were we talking about?

You got any Cheetos?

12-11-2006, 09:05 PM

Quote:

southern_freethinker wrote

Um, I obey the natural and ethical laws, but secular laws I have to admit I obey when it's convenient to do so, or because it is too INconvenient not to do so. I won't steal or murder because they're ethical and moral laws more than secular ones. But if I'm sitting at a redlight at 5a.m. and no owe is around (which often happens to me, by the way), I just run the damned thing rather than sit obediently waiting all by myself for it to turn green. I pay my taxes because, despite what the IRS says about ours being a voluntary tax system (ha!), if one fails to pay his taxes then jack-booted thugs with firearms bash down your door and haul you and your belongings away. I speed when I think I can get away with it, and I usually do... I guess I'm what you'd call an ethical scofflaw, if that makes any sense. If I see no sense to a stupid law and it's inconvenient for me to do otherwise, I'll break it...sometimes just to stay in practice and to remind myself that I own me, not the government.

Redlight: fuckin' right you don't wait around...as long as you can't see another car's lights, which just may be the guy who invites you to the policeman's ball.

Speeding (say, on the freeway) is the biggest victimless crime I have ever heard of. I am in Southern California, and if you aren't doing at least 75 in the fast lane, you are going to get rolled over. I usually let the dumbasses do that fast lane, and go 75 in the #2 lane. And I don't tailgate- that's seriously stupid. If there is no traffic on the freeway, I'll go 80 mph. But I know my tires, I maintain my own car, and I even know how to drive with a blowout. Or a stuck throttle. But that's a story for another day.

[/rant]

Seriously, I consider educated atheists (as opposed to people who simply never heard of a deity or the idea thereof) to be intelligent above the norm. As such, Cal's hypothesis applies. We are not psycho, or even close. Having a strong mental balance (and being fortunate to have the proper brain chemistry, in my opinion) saves us from having to end up in cages (prison).

12-11-2006, 10:19 PM

More Christians end up in prison because they are weak and ignorant.

Whoever said ignorance is bliss is a complete idiot themselves.