11-18-2007, 01:41 PM
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#1
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Guest
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"I've had my prayers answered"
Theists often claim to know that their prayers have been answered (for example see Lily's post in the "Bad Guy" thread). I wonder, how can you determine if your prayer has indeed been "answered." How do you know that some sort of entity made what was prayed for a reality?
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11-18-2007, 01:49 PM
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#2
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Guest
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Easy: something you wanted happened.
And if it doesn't, then God has a plan.
Astoundingly enough, the probability that God's plan/prayer results in an event happening exactly as often as it would have normally. Funny, huh?
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11-18-2007, 02:06 PM
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#3
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,765
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As I said in the "Bad Guy" thread:
Lily has had her prayers answered in exactly the same way that I've really wanted something to happen and seen it happen. Claiming that one has "had prayers answered" is an astonishingly blatant case of flaunting beneficial coincidences while dismissing detrimental coincidences:
* The thing I prayed for happened (beneficial coincidence)? God answered my prayer (flaunt the coincidence).
* The thing I prayed for didn't happen (detrimental coincidence)? It wasn't in God's plan (dismiss the coincidence).
Of course, the reality is that if one exerts some effort toward an end, rather than wasting time praying, one will affect that outcome far more effectively. Because even if an omnipotent, omniscience being exists, prayer can never work:
Quote:
In the New Bern Sun Journal, I wrote
Presumably, those who pray assume that their prayers are being received by some sort of supernatural entity that they believe to be both omnipotent and omniscient. The nature of omniscience, however, contradicts the purpose of prayer, since any omniscient entity would have known everything that would ever happen since the beginning of time.
It would know every word, every action, and every thought. So if an event happens, that entity created it, and not only knew about it long before it actually happened, but knew how humans would react to it. All of human history is set and determined if an omniscient entity exists. Nothing can be changed, because to do so would negate that entity’s perfect foreknowledge.
So even an allegedly omnipotent entity cannot do everything; it can only do what it already knows will happen. An omniscient entity cannot, therefore, be omnipotent.
That same entity also knew in advance that humans would pray about a particular situation. Yet knowing long beforehand that humans would want the situation changed, that entity created the event as is. That entity did not see enough merit in those prayers to change the event before they were uttered; if it had, it would not have created the event in the first place. And an omniscient entity cannot advise humans to do anything but what it already knows they will do. If that entity advised a different course of action than what it knew, then it would contradict its own omniscience.
In either event, the effects of praying are identical to the effects of not praying.
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a‧the‧ist (n): one who remains unconvinced.
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11-18-2007, 02:24 PM
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#4
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I Live Here
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Chandler- Arizona
Posts: 14,227
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Quote:
anthonyjfuchs wrote
As I said in the "Bad Guy" thread:
Lily has had her prayers answered in exactly the same way that I've really wanted something to happen and seen it happen. Claiming that one has "had prayers answered" is an astonishingly blatant case of flaunting beneficial coincidences while dismissing detrimental coincidences:
* The thing I prayed for happened (beneficial coincidence)? God answered my prayer (flaunt the coincidence).
* The thing I prayed for didn't happen (detrimental coincidence)? It wasn't in God's plan (dismiss the coincidence).
Of course, the reality is that if one exerts some effort toward an end, rather than wasting time praying, one will affect that outcome far more effectively. Because even if an omnipotent, omniscience being exists, prayer can never work:
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Regardless of how many times A christian prays he/she will not survive my JET. A test Lily loves to ignore..
Christians and other folks infected with delusional beliefs think and reason like schizophrenics or temporal lobe epileptics. Their morality is dictated by an invisible friend called Jesus.
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11-18-2007, 04:02 PM
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#5
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Guest
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Obviously I agree with you AJF. I just want to see what theists can provide in the way of evidence. Do I expect valid evidence? No. But I am curious to see theists' (lack of) reasoning on this.
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11-18-2007, 04:11 PM
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#6
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I Live Here
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Around the way
Posts: 12,641
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Quote:
Metman07 wrote
Obviously I agree with you AJF. I just want to see what theists can provide in the way of evidence. Do I expect valid evidence? No. But I am curious to see theists' (lack of) reasoning on this.
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Metman, by now, you and I both know that theists never, I mean nevah! EVAH! present evidence for any of their fantastical claims. They merely assert, because many are very assertive that way.
And please don't ask them to explain. It only makes them more assertive.
"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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11-18-2007, 04:51 PM
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#7
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Mistress Monster Mod'rator Spy
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The North Coast
Posts: 15,428
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"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
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11-18-2007, 04:56 PM
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#8
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I Live Here
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Around the way
Posts: 12,641
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Amazing.
How do you do it?
Wait. I don't wanna know.
I prefer to believe it's a miracle.
That'll help me understand it better.
"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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11-18-2007, 05:00 PM
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#9
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Mistress Monster Mod'rator Spy
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The North Coast
Posts: 15,428
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Umm, let's try a laying of hands...
Feel the power mooving within?
"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
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11-18-2007, 05:01 PM
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#10
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 9,775
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wow, irre....you are so...so...assertive tonight......
One of the most irrational of all the conventions of modern society is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected....That they should have this immunity is an outrage. There is nothing in religious ideas, as a class, to lift them above other ideas. On the contrary, they are always dubious and often quite silly.
H. L. Mencken
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11-18-2007, 05:07 PM
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#11
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I Live Here
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Around the way
Posts: 12,641
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Quote:
Eva wrote
wow, irre....you are so...so...assertive tonight......
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How so?
After all this time, I still can't get the smilie coding right. The first time, that is.
"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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11-18-2007, 05:53 PM
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#12
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I Live Here
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 20,925
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Quote:
calpurnpiso wrote
Regardless of how many times A christian prays he/she will not survive my JET. A test Lily loves to ignore..
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The Leprechauns do not forbid the drawing of Their images, as long as we color within the lines. ~ Ghoulslime H Christ, Prophet, Seer, Revelator, and Masturbator
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11-18-2007, 05:55 PM
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#13
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Mistress Monster Mod'rator Spy
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The North Coast
Posts: 15,428
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"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
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11-18-2007, 06:23 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Giant rock hurtling through space
Posts: 767
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Another thing to add into the equation is that people often remember hits but forget misses.
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11-18-2007, 07:49 PM
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#15
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 9,775
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Quote:
Irreligious wrote
How so?
After all this time, I still can't get the smilie coding right. The first time, that is.
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well, dahlin', all that assertin'....but, unlike the lilycow, you make sense...
One of the most irrational of all the conventions of modern society is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected....That they should have this immunity is an outrage. There is nothing in religious ideas, as a class, to lift them above other ideas. On the contrary, they are always dubious and often quite silly.
H. L. Mencken
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