Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-05-2013, 08:43 AM   #46
Erik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 644
Quote:
Andrew66 wrote View Post
I'm not arguing anymore that belief in religion is rationale! All I'm saying is why not HOPE? If nothing else, it dimishes the sting and fear of death.
Hope for what, exactly? I'm not sure I follow you very well. According to the beliefs of Christians for a long time, there are many more ways of ending up in hell than in heaven. The times I have been proselytized, that was one of the main points being pushed: the great majority of people are hell bound, the path to salvation is narrow. Shouldn't I rather hope that this is all complete bullshit, in addition to being almost completely certain that is it complete bullshit?

Don't get me wrong -- I understand the potential power of hope. But I would rather spend it on the hope that humanity won't destroy itself by destroying its environment.
Erik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2013, 11:03 AM   #47
Andrew66
Obsessed Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,397
Quote:
Erik wrote View Post
Hope for what, exactly? I'm not sure I follow you very well. According to the beliefs of Christians for a long time, there are many more ways of ending up in hell than in heaven. The times I have been proselytized, that was one of the main points being pushed: the great majority of people are hell bound, the path to salvation is narrow. Shouldn't I rather hope that this is all complete bullshit, in addition to being almost completely certain that is it complete bullshit?.
Hope for what exactly?

People generally hate the thought of dying, as on naturalism (which goes with hoping religion is "bullshit") death is the end of a person's existence - which for many is a scary, unwanted proposition.

So many, even completely rational people Hope that there is an afterlife.

Once this Hope is established, the Hoper (being a perfectionist) would typically ask, is there any way I can best secure my chances in obtaining this hoped for desirable afterliife?. In other words, how can I best refine my hope in the hopes of best outcome?.

The Hoper begins to study all the written topics on the subject. He finds most discussion on how to obtain a desirable afterlife is found in religious teachings, which profess a belief in God and a belief in an afterlief.

The Hoper then decides to pick a religion to refine his HOPE. The criteria for his selection will be personal, such as a) which religion feels right b) after praying which religion feels right c) which religion has biggest impact factor d) which religion has the best historical grounds to represent the existance of their named God - eg. historical records of miracles etc.

Many pick Christian, some Islam, some Judasism, some Scientology, some Hinduism - each having their own beliefs on afterlife.

Now if you bear with me this is where the story gets interesting.

The Hoper, having picked (by way of example, lets say Christianity) tells his minister that he hopes God exists but cannot really belief or have faith in it. The Minister will tell the individual that hope isn't good enough, you must go that extra yard and belief if yiou are to benefit from the hope of the Christian religion (i.e. go to Heaven). The Hoper asks valdidly, how can I belief in something without evidence, that would be irrational? The minister replies, pray to God (the one you at least Hope exists) and ask for his Spirit to come inside you, the HOLY SPIRIT of God has the power to infuse you with not just Faith but even Knoweldge that a loving God exists! Ask and it will be given to you, knock and you shall recieve.

Next step - hoper now Believes!!!!

Was this a brain washing t actic or really the holy Spirit, that is the question!!

So Hope is powerful. It drives people to religion as I've explained above. I'm not trying to pursuade anyone to hope, but if you do hope many will take the nexts step to refine their hope so be ware, you might find God!.
Andrew66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2013, 01:02 PM   #48
dogpet
Obsessed Member
 
dogpet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Mongrel Nation
Posts: 4,839
Quote:
Andrew66 wrote View Post
If you cannot rule out a God's (plus promissed afterlife's) existence with 100% certainty, than you should have no quarrel with a man for just hoping God's existence to be true, can you?
We can have plenty quarrel with your malicious warblings, when every hoper like yourself, (though I suspect you're a bit more than that), in effect brands atheists as no-hopers.
However much backsliding you do, while only making a token effort to appease the focus of your paranoia, it still goes towards justifying everything from paralysing someone in state custody to annoying people out for a bit of Sunday shopping.
You can hope upon hope your personal god thinks exactly like you, & it does , & it dies with you too.

thank goodness he's on our side
dogpet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2013, 01:39 PM   #49
Erik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 644
Quote:
Andrew66 wrote View Post
People generally hate the thought of dying, as on naturalism (which goes with hoping religion is "bullshit") death is the end of a person's existence - which for many is a scary, unwanted proposition.
...
So Hope is powerful. It drives people to religion as I've explained above. I'm not trying to pursuade anyone to hope, but if you do hope many will take the nexts step to refine their hope so be ware, you might find God!.
I don't doubt for a second that self-deluded people can have beliefs to help them with fear of death, assuming the Great Frying Pan of Reality never hits them in the face. Much of religion I find to be fairly benign. But the problem with your position is that for a lot of people, there is a whole raft of extra baggage that comes with religious belief. It's all too easy to go from faith in a Universal God to belief that that God has rules for behavior. Plus that nice man who knows how to read the nice Book properly gets to live in the nice mansion, tax free. Or what lack of fear of death did for those 19 guys on 9/11.

In other words, there are costs to what you are saying, whether you realize it or not.

I hope for things that are tangible; the rest is bullshit, and sometimes it's dangerous bullshit.
Erik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2013, 09:37 PM   #50
Andrew66
Obsessed Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,397
Quote:
dogpet wrote View Post
We can have plenty quarrel with your malicious warblings, when every hoper like yourself, (though I suspect you're a bit more than that), in effect brands atheists as no-hopers..
I said earlier that even an Atheist can still hope that a god exists.

Eg. An atheist could state "I don't believe that a god exists as there is no compelling evidence to justify the claim, but I HOPE I'm wrong".

So I have not branded atheists as "no-hopers".

FYI - I've asked some important religious leaders in the Christian faith whether HOPE is enough to achieve salvation in an eternally desirable afterlife - as this could open an otherwise closed doorway for Agnostics and even Atheists - but so far there doesn't seem to be Biblical support for this. Sorry... But I don't quite buy that, I think a fair God would be OK with HOPE .
Andrew66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2013, 01:45 AM   #51
Smellyoldgit
Stinkin' Mod
 
Smellyoldgit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Britland
Posts: 13,607
Quote:
Andrew66 wrote View Post
I've asked some important religious leaders in the Christian faith whether HOPE is enough to achieve salvation in an eternally desirable afterlife.
No religious leader is important - they're all cunts, and the thought of sharing even one day with tedious twats (such as yourself) fills me with horror. An eternity with the crass stupidity of human dregs doesn't bear thinking about.

Stop the Holy See men!
Smellyoldgit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2013, 08:55 AM   #52
ILOVEJESUS
I Live Here
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,158
You have not addressed, quelle surprise, what the point of this hope would be. I could be atheist and hope a God exists. So what? I could hope god is an infinite amount of beautiful 25 year old Eastern European gymnasts who will pleasure me for an eternity.....what was the question again?

A theist is just an atheist with a space in it.
ILOVEJESUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 10:54 AM   #53
psychodiva
I Live Here
 
psychodiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 9,613
Quote:
Andrew66 wrote View Post

I think you are arguing with a straw man, I am not trying to "win over anyone" (in so far as to promote that a belief in God is a rationale prosepct).
I might be more inclined to continue past the initial few words of one of your posts if you would merely learn the difference between 'rational' and rationale'. Please- go look them up.

'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what." Fry
psychodiva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 10:55 AM   #54
psychodiva
I Live Here
 
psychodiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 9,613
Quote:
Davin wrote View Post
You keep using the word "rationale." I thought the first one or two times it was just a typo, but now it seems that you're really just using the wrong word. The word you should be using in this context is "rational" not "rationale." If you're not here to persuade anyone, then why the fuck are you here presenting this shit?
ah- thank you- I should have read the next post down before I posted about this irritating twerp's habit of misusing the word

'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what." Fry
psychodiva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 10:58 AM   #55
psychodiva
I Live Here
 
psychodiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 9,613
Quote:
Andrew66 wrote View Post
Hope for what exactly?

People generally hate the thought of dying, as on naturalism (which goes with hoping religion is "bullshit") death is the end of a person's existence - which for many is a scary, unwanted proposition.

So many, even completely rational people Hope that there is an afterlife.

Once this Hope is established, the Hoper (being a perfectionist) .....plus more twaddle.
Where are you from? Is English your first language? if it is not then I will be inclined to ignore the very basic errors in your writing.

'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what." Fry
psychodiva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 11:01 AM   #56
psychodiva
I Live Here
 
psychodiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 9,613
Quote:
Andrew66 wrote View Post
Hope for what exactly?



absolute fucking twat filled tosh.
tell all that to the starving kids, the abused kids, the woman who just lost her fourth child - etc etc- I'm sure what they HOPE for is not a fucking useless god

'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what." Fry
psychodiva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 11:06 AM   #57
psychodiva
I Live Here
 
psychodiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 9,613
Quote:
Andrew66 wrote View Post
I said earlier that even an Atheist can still hope that a god exists.

Eg. An atheist could state "I don't believe that a god exists as there is no compelling evidence to justify the claim, but I HOPE I'm wrong".

So I have not branded atheists as "no-hopers".

FYI - I've asked some important religious leaders in the Christian faith whether HOPE is enough to achieve salvation in an eternally desirable afterlife - as this could open an otherwise closed doorway for Agnostics and even Atheists - but so far there doesn't seem to be Biblical support for this. Sorry... But I don't quite buy that, I think a fair God would be OK with HOPE .
Why would an atheist HOPE they are wrong? what would be the point of it? Not everybody's life is focussed on the stupid and invisible- some of us just get on with it and do some real good.

Would I worry if you 'branded' us as 'no hopers'? much less than I would worry if the catholics are ever going to apologise for being kiddie-raping wankers? probably not.

Well whoop-de-doo- some 'important religious leaders' eh?? I think at this time we are supposed to go 'wow? well how about fuck off you narcissistic twat* instead? it is pretty obvious you have a narcissistic personality that craves attention so fuck off and talk to your 'hopeless' god , maybe the invisible being will give you what you want.


*rhymes with cat

'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what." Fry
psychodiva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 02:54 PM   #58
dogpet
Obsessed Member
 
dogpet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Mongrel Nation
Posts: 4,839
Quote:
Andrew66 wrote View Post
I said earlier that even an Atheist can still hope that a god exists.

Eg. An atheist could state "I don't believe that a god exists as there is no compelling evidence to justify the claim, but I HOPE I'm wrong".
Well hardly . We would first of all need to have some sort of belief there is a further life, then that some awesome being has an interest & involvement in that wish, & that that particular being happened to be one of the more than several described gods. Only then, after wish upon wish upon wish, could we begin to hope such a creature passed our own personal best god test.
All that waste of time & energy couldn't be further from a rational persons mind, & I don't have to hope I'm right.

thank goodness he's on our side
dogpet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2013, 08:27 AM   #59
Davin
Obsessed Member
 
Davin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: One the armpits of the U.S. of A.
Posts: 2,856
Quote:
Andrew66 wrote View Post
Eg. An atheist could state "I don't believe that a god exists as there is no compelling evidence to justify the claim, but I HOPE I'm wrong".
You also haven't shown that the god won't eternally punish people for hoping that a god exists.

Also, which Christian god? "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." That's quite a strong and clear commandment. Now which other god should one not believe in? The god that told people not to mix fabrics? Because that's the god that said to not have other gods before him, and if you believe in a god that doesn't have any problems with mixed fabrics, then isn't that a different god? Then by hoping/believing in that different god, you'd be putting that other god before the one that told you not to. Uh oh, now you're fucked.

Quote:
Andrew66 wrote
FYI - I've asked some important religious leaders in the Christian faith[...]
I'ma let you finish, but there are no important religious leaders. OK, I lied, I won't let you finish (or at least I won't address the rest because it's worthless).

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.
Davin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 04:04 PM   #60
dogpet
Obsessed Member
 
dogpet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Mongrel Nation
Posts: 4,839
Quote:
Andrew66 wrote View Post
All I can say is that just because some abuse the desire many individuals have for the HOPE in God (eg. promissed afterlife etc.), this has no barring on whether there is any truth to an assertion that God exists. God either exists or not, irrespective of how the world conducts its affairs relating to the issue.

Having said that, I do see your point that if God doesn't exist, then peddling the concept may dupe indivdiduals to get hooked into religion, and once indoctrinated they may start to donate money (and that would be a shame). However I suspect you may agree that the write to free speach and write to practice religion in our country seems to trump the right to shield people from religion (unless you lived in the old USSR under Stalin, or Naxi Germany under Hitler).
If someone sets up shop as a jesusmonger, they should have some proof that a jesus is available to buy. It's like some bullshit timeshare scam that actually steals time, with money as a bonus.

thank goodness he's on our side
dogpet is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:05 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin - Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2000 - , Raving Atheists [dot] com frequency-supranational frequency-supranational