Religiously Motivated Killings vs Atheistically Motivated Killings

Realityhack wrote

Murder, War, etc., etc. are not typicaly religious or athiestic. They are about power, money, mental disorders, land control, etc.

In a few cases they are arguably religious... I have never heard of a case where they were arguably motivated by athiesm. But I would not go with very many being religous. More often excused with/by religion.

Exactly. That's what bothers me about Sam Harris' diatribe about religion...he blames the institution, not the people. Though I doubt I will go kill somebody for atheism anytime soon. Maybe it's the religion that attracts the nuts...after all, look at Carico's posts.

[GodlessHeathen]

Realityhack wrote

You mean the ones over the teretory of isriel and the ocupied teretories? Land is fundementaly involved. I do not think it would realy make a diffrence if say the islamic faction was hindu instead.

So, religion has nothing to do with it? The fact that these 2 sects have hated each other for more than a thousand years? Nothing to do with it?

Hardly.

Again, I reiterate what I said:

me wrote

I agree that there are other motivations for war. I disagree with your assessment that religion isn't one of them.

I didn't say that religion was the cause of ALL war. But to discount it as a major factor is naive.

[anthonyjfuchs]

I can't rightly let a distinction like that go unclarified.

Religion is the most common justification for war. The reason that, for instance, the United States is currently invading Iraq is oil and money (which are admittedly tightly related); the justification is that "we have to stop those Muslim terrorists from destroying our Christian way of life." Religion is the justification, not the reason. Granted, in cases like the Crusades, religion was both reason and justification; reclaiming the "holy lands" when in fact the Christian hordes were simply murdering their fellow humans for a plot of sand.

Politicians have historically used the "god is with us" and "god wants us to do this" claims to rally their people to war. It appeals to the emotions, and there is no disproof that can overwhelm that emotion fully and quickly enough. Even Bush II the Appointed claimed that "God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struk the, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did." He actually said that.

Without the "god wants us to" justification, politicians are just asking people to go kill other fellow humans, and eventually enough people would catch on and realize that killing for financial and policital reasons is immoral (yes, immoral; read Ebon Musing's article on atheist morals) and refuse to do it. The religious justification is really just a way to make murder a little lighter on the conscience.

[GodlessHeathen]

In realistic terms, what is the difference between a "justification" and a "reason"? There can be more than one reason to go to war. What constitutes a "justification" as opposed to a "reason"?

[anthonyjfuchs]

A reason is simply what prompts one to take an action. If I murder some guy because I don't like his hair, that's my reason.

A justification is what makes a reason valid or not valid. If I murder some guy because I don't like his hair, my reason is unjustified. If I murder some guy because I catch him raping a child at knifepoint and he's about to slip the kid's throat unless I stop him, and killing him is the only way to stop him, then my reason is justified.

The "reason" that The United States invaded Iraq was to steal its oil and make money off of it. The "justification" for that "reason" was that, according to Dubya, "Saddam Hussein financed those Muslim terrorists who killed all those innocent Christian Americans" (NOTE: that is not a direct quote, but a conglomeration of Bush the Younger's sentiments that I do not want mistaken for my own words). Of course, the justification turned out to be a long hallway lined with smoke and mirrors, meaning that the reason was unjustified.

In short: a reason is why you did it, a justification is why it's okay that you did it.

[a different tim]

Here's a particularly unpleasant one: http://www.religionnewsblog.com/1324...-child-witches

There's been more than one death here, I think.