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Old 08-04-2008, 02:57 PM   #451
nkb
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Choobus wrote View Post
One thing I can tell you about theist scientists is that their faith never shows up in their work. Astronomers do not posit theories of 6000 year old asteroid fields, and if they did they would be laughed out of town, and all the other astronomers would make fun of them. The fact is, scientists who believe in god leave their jeebus at home when they go to work. Those who don't don't have a problem, because they don't have jobs.
Or work at the Discovery Institute.

But then, calling them scientists is a stretch.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
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Old 08-04-2008, 05:53 PM   #452
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Excellent video!

Gives ample support for the dual notions, that one can sift the Bible for good and valuable ideas while eliminating the parts created for human spin and power agendas; the Bible was physically written by humans with, at most, the tiniest subtle dusting of influence by some kind of spirit.

In other words, the Bible might contain some words that God wants us to know and understand, but it is certainly not the "Word of God", complete and inerrant.

Bless those honest theologians who admit that earthly human desires are the substance of so much of the Bible.

Damn the clergy and the powerful who continue to teach children and others that the Bible is literal as if written by God Himself.

Thanks Vlad, good catch!

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Old 08-04-2008, 06:11 PM   #453
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Again. If the evidence is persuasive that Jesus is who he said he is, he is God and all further discussion is merely an interesting diversion.
That might be true unless, for example, Zeus is who he says he is, in which case, Jesus takes a decidedly subordinate young upstart position. Even Mithras, if he is who he says he is, has seniority over Jesus.

Your oft-repeated "IF" still lacks merit, Bovina.

If I am who I say I am then all of my words are inspired and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

A failed condition yields a failed consequent. Jesus is thus not shown to be God or anything else.

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Old 08-04-2008, 06:21 PM   #454
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This is so stupid it isn't even amusing. First of all, Christ was seen by many hundreds of people after his resurrection. Some of them are even named by Paul in one of his letters. It was not just the "12" who saw him. Next, you don't have to pay the church a single penny. Salvation is free and it is yours for the asking.

I doubt that I will bother any further with you. This is kid's stuff. When you grow up, there are lots of people who will help you learn what the actual claims of Christianity are.
Yeah, be sure you look up the Biblical references to tithing and the "widow's mite" in your quest for the actual claims of Christianity.

"God may be great, but He just can't handle money." Carlin

Paul, the early spreader of hearsay, never met Jesus either. His testimony concerning the testimony of other people just bears no weight.

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Old 08-04-2008, 06:32 PM   #455
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Lily, if the events depicted in the New Testament are true and so many learned folk approach it as historical, why is Christianity a religion and not, you know, just plain ol' history?
Related question: if there was significant factual basis, wouldn't it be the science of Christ and not the religion of Christianity. Incidentally, wouldn't the textbook be revised at least every century or so to accommodate the influx of new facts?

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Old 08-04-2008, 06:47 PM   #456
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Actually He does. He says He created male and female to procreate and fill the earth. Science doesn't have a clue how it happened.

They've got some stories cooking, now. But they don't have a clue.
"He created..." is not even a guess at HOW genderless creatures evolved gender, non-randomly, for no other reason than that doing so improved their survivability. If you knew even a jot of biology this would be much clearer and your opinions less ignorant. All of modern Biology is predicated on goal-free, undirected evolution.

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Old 08-04-2008, 06:49 PM   #457
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There are chariot wrecks under the red sea.
So an egyptian fleet sank there.
So..................

...........well umm, thats it.
Or a large cargo ship carrying chariots sank ...

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Old 08-04-2008, 07:03 PM   #458
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You really believe intelligence "evolved"? You tell me that principles of physics just simply exist? How is selection natural and unguided across life forms with no sets of instructions? They evolved for survival but we see extinction and degeneration of species? Where are the "super-unkillables" that should have evolved to such strength and numbers that they are unstoppable as the fittest of the fit?
Unintelligent questions that have, even so, been answered thousands, if not hundreds of times.

If the aggregate intelligence of one generation is slightly different than its parent generation and if intelligence is inherited and if intelligence improves species survivability, then intelligence will (has) evolve(d) from just smart enough to steer in the direction of food and away from signs of danger, to modern intellects and beyond. Evolution has not stopped for any living species.

The principles of physics do exist and, no, they do not suggest or imply anything about their origin. Like mathematics, they, in a corresponding form, might be co-existent with God and manifest in the universe without being created, just as mathematics were.

Bah, enough of this pounding sand down a rat-hole, willfully ignorant jerk.

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Old 08-05-2008, 05:27 AM   #459
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Pontius Pilate and Caiaphas had been considered mythical persons for centuries. They've found evidence proving they're historical persons. Jesus prophesied the destruction of the temple which took place in 70 CE. We know for a fact that churches were begun prior to 70CE in Athioch, Jerusalem, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colossae, Thessolonica, and Rome as mentioned in the NT. We have Roman rulers mentioned by name.
So, you write a letter saying what a great war hero your grandfather was and that he received a personal commendation from Harry Truman. In a hundred years, the confirmed administration of Harry Truman adds exactly what credibility to your grandfather's good record? He might have been a traitorous deserter, but Harry Truman existed so your written crap must be true, right?

"Gone with the Wind" is an historical document because almost everything depicted in it is completely accurate about the people and places of the civil war. Anyone not recorded in the annals of that time must be true because the rest of the book is.

The way that confidence games ("cons") work is to meld a dollop of truth into the false story. Then the gullible fool believes it because it "makes sense" and some of it can be verified.

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Old 08-05-2008, 05:29 AM   #460
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I'm dismissing no evidence of science. None. Only the interpretive hypothetical opinions pertaining to cause.
You are claiming that even the science comes from your farcical being.

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Old 08-05-2008, 06:19 AM   #461
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Is the plank even around anymore? He seemed to vanish right after I brought up sexual dimorphism. Pfft.

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Old 08-05-2008, 08:14 AM   #462
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Sure...Like Jericho and Nineveh were considered by the Enlightenment as myths that proved the bible wrong. The problem is they found them both in the 1800's.
You do love selective reading, don't you. Jericho was discovered and it had been ruined and abandoned more than a hundred years before Joshua is supposed to have arrived. All the best myths have a sprinkling of incidental truths just to make them believable. Similarly, Nazareth is a real place, but in Jesus' time it was a necropolis (grave city) that no Jew would think of living anywhere near. Similarly, Ai, supposedly completely destroyed and desolated forever in the Bible story, wasn't supposed to be discoverable, has been discovered and is a vibrant city/village with a substantial population.

Saying that the Bible is a reliable historical document is not only incorrect, it would not help the credibility of the Bible if it were accurate.

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Old 08-05-2008, 08:29 AM   #463
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I agree the "how" is likely unanswerable since we're talking about specific mechanisms we can't observe or recreate.

The real question is "who and why" OR if a who and why exists. You claim that all this is caused by some explainable phenomena even though it can't be explained as to the origin of the original energy, matter, forces, principles, etc. that somehow set an unguided chain reaction of events in motion culminating in the universe, life, and intelligence.

I say that the very idea is preposterous and fantastically ignorant without even considering the insurmountable statistical odds of such an occurrence.
You contaminate the question immediately by asking "who" did something. You presume, without reason that everything was done by someone.

When you are pinned down as to just who that someone is for the creation of the universe, the best that you and your mental cohorts can suggest is
"the universe was created by that being who was capable of creating a universe." You seem to actually think that you have an answer and that you have proven the eternal existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

You repeat that science's current inability to explain the origin of the universe defaults to God.

I have a bag containing 100 pennies. Now, you tell me, who put them in the bag. I don't know who put them there and neither you nor I can find out (we do know that it was done long ago due to the dates on the coins) so it must have been God, right?

To quote a contemporary philosopher: "the very idea is preposterous and fantastically ignorant".

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Old 08-05-2008, 08:35 AM   #464
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While the exact how is unknown, the who and why have been made known. Why would it be arrogant to agree with the Creator?
It is arrogant to say that you agree with the Creator. Stupidly arrogant if the Creator does not exist and pridefully arrogant, implying that you know fundamentally unknowable things about Him, if He does.

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Old 08-05-2008, 08:39 AM   #465
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Not at all. Born again believers know God and have a relationship with Him. His word answers all the questions of His singular existence, His intentions, and His edicts. There's no faith involved in knowing truth or what's been revealed.

Faith is a trust placed for the future based upon the knowledge of His character, personal relationship, and His interaction with mankind throughout history.
Then faith is a trust based on wishful dreams for His character, personal subjective unverifiable internal experience and the effects these dreams have had on mankind.

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