Yes...The Old Testament Laws Still Apply

[West491]

Some Christians like to say that the Old Testament Laws don't apply anymore, and that they have a new covenant. This thread is just a place to post the scriptures (Old or New Testament) that contradict this viewpoint. Erm, yeah, this doesn't have to be a long thread but it could be a useful resource. I'll start it off with a couple.

Genesis 17:19
Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac.[a] I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

Matthew 5:18-19
And Jesus said,...... "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven."

[Davin]

But it also says that they'll only be the least in the kingdom of heaven, doesn't say anything about going to hell for breaking them.

[West491]

True. However, the point is that Jesus himself disapproves of people not obeying the laws in the Old Testament.

[fiatlux]

Here's a covenant from the god of the OT that contradicts a covenant from the same god of the OT. Sorry it's a little off topic, but it's another piece of ammo one could use when arguing these types of points.

Covenant with the descendants of Noah, purported to be the ancestors of all mankind:

Genesis 9:1-4 So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.”

Covenant with the Israelites, also the supposed descendants of Noah:

Leviticus 11

*41And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten.

*42Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination.

*43Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby.

*44For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

[West491]

Very nice observation, fiat. I never noticed that.

[fiatlux]

West491 wrote

Very nice observation, fiat. I never noticed that.

Thanks! I had never heard it before either, but your thread got me digging. I remembered that there was a covenant with Noah so I did a search and was shocked to find the verse about "every moving thing that lives" being up for grabs on the holy smorgasboard in my very first google search. If I weren't an atheist, it would be easy to believe that divine providence was guiding my mouse and typing fingers.

A simpler explanation would probably be that these kind of inconsistencies must be rampant throughout the not-so-good book, if even a computer klutz like me could stumble across one on his very first attempt.

[lostsheep]

So gawd hates those creepy crawlies...well, I for one can understand that.
We all have our things that make us recoil in fear and loathing!

[thomastwo]

West491 wrote

Some Christians like to say that the Old Testament Laws don't apply anymore, and that they have a new covenant. This thread is just a place to post the scriptures (Old or New Testament) that contradict this viewpoint. Erm, yeah, this doesn't have to be a long thread but it could be a useful resource. I'll start it off with a couple.

Genesis 17:19
Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac.[a] I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

You also need to underline "for his descendants". Not a descendant? Then not an everlasting covenant.

West491 wrote

Matthew 5:18-19
And Jesus said,...... "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven."

The claim of Christians is that Jesus did fulfil the law, and therefore removed the condition. And verse 17 appears to be a confirmation of that view?

[thomastwo]

fiatlux wrote

Here's a covenant from the god of the OT that contradicts a covenant from the same god of the OT. Sorry it's a little off topic, but it's another piece of ammo one could use when arguing these types of points.

Covenant with the descendants of Noah, purported to be the ancestors of all mankind:

Genesis 9:1-4 So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.”

Covenant with the Israelites, also the supposed descendants of Noah:

Leviticus 11

*41And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten.

*42Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination.

*43Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby.

*44For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

They are different covenants. Why should they be the same?

[fiatlux]

thomastwo wrote

They are different covenants. Why should they be the same?

Why would a god that once looked upon his creation and called it "good" later look upon parts of that same creation and call them an obomination?

[fiatlux]

thomastwo wrote

[/indent]
The claim of Christians is that Jesus did fulfil the law, and therefore removed the condition. And verse 17 appears to be a confirmation of that view?

Christians claim many things. But if Christ was all knowing and knew he was going to fulfill the law, why include all of the melodramatic verbiage about "til heaven and earth shall pass yada yada.just for effect, I suppose.

[fiatlux]

Abomination. That is. Heh.

[thomastwo]

fiatlux wrote

Why would a god that once looked upon his creation and called it "good" later look upon parts of that same creation and call them an obomination?

Garden of Eden and all that.

[thomastwo]

fiatlux wrote

Christians claim many things. But if Christ was all knowing and knew he was going to fulfill the law, why include all of the melodramatic verbiage about "til heaven and earth shall pass yada yada.just for effect, I suppose.

Yes, for effect. Matthew was writing to the Jewish community. Matt 5:17-20 is a summary of Jesus' attitude towards the Law.

[fiatlux]

thomastwo wrote

Garden of Eden and all that.

Never existed and all that.