01-18-2011, 02:35 PM
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#301
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He who walks among the theists
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Big D
Posts: 12,119
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Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
NKB would just sit back on his Jabba the Hut chair and grow steadily larger.
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You never answered me the first time: What is your hangup about fat people?
Are you obese, and being called a fatty is the insult that hurts you the most, so you assume that calling someone else fat will have the same effect?
Or did you get bullied by a fat kid when you were small, and you still hold a grudge against big-boned people? Or did a big guy hold you down and molest you?
Or are you really shallow and vain, and getting fat is a recurring nightmare that you can't shake?
I am genuinely curious.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
George Bernard Shaw
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01-18-2011, 02:41 PM
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#302
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,765
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Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
New Zealand. The land is stunning, yet the people are dull.
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I could be a Kiwi. Peter Jackson filmed the The Lord of the Rings there. I very much see myself settling down in Hobbiton and living a perfectly boring life.
Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
I don't believe that those who are atheists are as a result of logic, which many here state.
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You don't believe that any atheist is one as a result of logic? That's a rather sweeping generalization to make.
I'll confess that, strictly speaking, logic in its philosophical sense did not lead to the destruction of my belief. It was more of a strict application of skepticism to the beliefs that had been chosen for me by my parents and grandparents. It wasn't really much of a stretch, either; I was already applying that skepticism elsewhere in my life, so extending it to the theology of my forebears was a smaller step than it could have been.
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selliedjoup wrote
Anyone can find any reason to jusitfy whatever they choose to 'believe'.
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I agree.
But what of us who cannot choose what we believe? Do we need to find reasons to justify the things we don't and can't believe? Do we have to justify our lack of belief in, say, the Loch Ness monster, leprechauns (sorry, ghoulie), the triomni Charonian Unicorns, the Nebulous Magic [Man], the Abonimable Snowman, or Jesus the Nazarene?
Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
I don’t agree that there is overlap between our views at all.
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Perhaps not between yours, personally, and mine, personally.
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selliedjoup wrote
The simialrtiy is we both consider ourselves to know that we are agnostic, but the application of our beliefs fundamentally over-rides the application of what we know.
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I'm not applying any beliefs, though. In fact, I don't have any beliefs to apply.
It's worth pointing out that every person, everywhere, is agnostic regarding the supernatural. None of us, from that turd Richard Dawkins to that turd Joseph Ratzinger, knows anything about any potential supernatural matters. It is not something that we can know.
Those we would call agnostic, however, are those who admit that they don't or can't know. Because, as we both know, there are people who will assert that they do know about the supernatural, that they experience it firsthand and converse with it daily.
Agnostics can still be theists, however. One can admit to lacking knowledge (some even claim that the inability to know is inherent in the supernatural) while still believing that the supernatural exists. Some even refer to that belief in the absence of knowledge "faith."
Agnostics can, however, be atheists as well. One can admit to lacking knowledge, and on the basis of that absence of knowledge, admit that one also does not believe. I, for instance, do not know that the Aos SÃ* exist, and am therefore agnostic toward them; I also do not believe that the Aos SÃ* exist, and am therefore atheistic toward them.
But I make no assertion that, just because I have neither knowledge of or belief in the Aos SÃ*, they don't exist. My knowledge and belief are irrelevant concerning whether or not the Aos SÃ* exist. This admission, however, does not make me any less an atheist toward them, because whether or not they exist, I still don't believe that they do.
Being an atheist doesn't mean asserting that there is nothing beyond our comprehension.
Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
I believe I don't know (and as such hold no belief or disbelief towards a "NMM"), while you believe in your disbelief of a "NMM".
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What does it mean to "believe in [my] disbelief"? Either I believe that the NM[M] exists, or I don't believe that the NM[M] exists. If I don't believe, then I don't "believe that I disbelieve"; I just don't believe. It is inaccurate to call my absence of belief in the NM[M] "disbelief" in the NM[M], because that is tantamount to asserting the positive claim that the NM[M] does not exist, and I have no evidence to support that claim (only an absence of evidence). I do not assert that your NM[M] doesn't exist. I only assert that I don't believe that it does. It may; I may be wrong. But the possibility of being wrong is not sufficient to make me believe that the NM[M] exists, and therefore, I lack that belief.
Imagine that belief is a coin. You either have it or you don't. Imagine that this coin is stamped with the image of whatever metaphysical being is in question. Leprechauns, say. Either you have a leprechaun coin (you believe), or you don't (you don't believe).
You either believe, or you don't. What is it that you believe that makes you not atheistic?
Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
There may be overlap between atheists who are agnostic and agnostics who are atheists, but this holds no relevance to my agnosticism as I'm not an atheist.
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You know that there are several brands of atheism, right? One need not make the positive assertion that the supernatural does not exist in order to be atheistic toward the supernatural. A simple absence of belief qualifies (by definition, really) as atheism. You and I are both atheistic toward any concept that we haven't yet heard, because we can't believe in a thing we don't know about.
You, for instance, say that you hold no belief in the NM[M]. In other words, you don't have an NM[M] coin in your pocket. You don't believe in the NM[M]. The fact that you also don't disbelieve in the NM[M] (as Meredith Grey would say, you "nothing" it) doesn't change the fact that you, by your own admission, also don't believe in it (or "hold no belief...towards" it).
How does that absence of belief not make you atheistic toward the NM[M]?
a‧the‧ist (n): one who remains unconvinced.
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01-18-2011, 04:40 PM
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#303
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,199
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Quote:
Irreligious wrote
You are lying. Denying it won't change that. Furthermore, you started this thread just so you had an excuse to continue being a contentious asshole. We get it already: You're a contentious asshole. What the fuck do you want any of us to do about that? Babysit you? Get the fuck out of here already! Don't come here with your bullshit asking us to ignore you taking copious dumps on our virtual community. Go shit in your own house.
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That you think i'm lying holds no value whatsoever. You may not like me but that does not equate to mean I must be lying.
So disgareeing with you is being contentious? Do you think this is the first time anyone has disgreed over discussing atheism?
Like I said, if you want me to go, ignore me.
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01-18-2011, 05:11 PM
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#304
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 176
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Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
So you admit the logical construct you apply to your belief set will only result in atheism?
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I think that if the evidence that is available to support the claim that a god exists, is examined with the same level of critical thinking that believers apply to other supernatural claims that they disbelieve, then the conclusion should be that the evidence is insufficient to justify belief.
I'm not saying it is enough justify the claim that a god does not exist.
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Existence requires an uncaused cause based on the causality we understand. There is no valid alternative. The uncertainty principle only proves that once existence is, uncaused causes occur
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No it doesn't.
A valid alternative is that the universe (the energy/matter that changed state at the big bang) has always existed.
There, that's a valid alternative that doesn't require some step in the creation of the universe that looks something like this - *insert magic universe creating process here*.
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Because if you do so, you're applying the principle that humanity can observe all that is, whether you believe it to be the true or not. If you don't believe it to be true, why apply the premise that evidence is required?
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What I've been saying (and every other atheist here) is that we acknowledge that we can't observe all that there is. But that acknowledgment still doesn't change the fact that there is still insufficient evidence to support belief that a god exist.
What else does this lack of evidence (that we both acknowledge is the current state of affairs) justify belief in? A supernatural penguin that exists outside time and space that crapped out our universe? If not, why not?
Bigfoot, tarot card reading, crystal healing, telekinesis, spoon bending, speaking with the dead, astral traveling, etc, etc. I'm sure you disbelieve in some or all of these types of supernatural claims. What is the method you use to reject the ones you disbelieve in, if not lack of evidence?
[quote]How do you reconcile a belief of all that is, is unobservable and that you believe you require evidence to prove things which are? You must admit that your belief of the requirement of evidence over-rides your belief of all that exists is unobservable? They are mutually exclusive/quote]
There is no contradiction. They are not mutually exclusive.
Why is it mutually exclusive to understand that there is so much that is unobservable, but still disbelieve a god exists?
Do you believe there's a supernatural penguin that lives outside time and space that craps out stars? If not, why not? After all, it may actually exist, hidden in all that we are unable to observe...right?
Quote:
So you commit to atheism, even though you’re aware of the limits of the position? Why?
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There is no limitation. I admit that a god may actually exist. But the fact that it may never be able to be observed does not alter my disbelief that it does.
What should be my justification to believe it exists?
Last edited by Simoon; 01-18-2011 at 05:26 PM.
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01-18-2011, 05:35 PM
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#305
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 176
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Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
So you commit to atheism, even though you’re aware of the limits of the position? Why?
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What do you believe is required to 'commit to atheism'?
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01-18-2011, 05:43 PM
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#306
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,902
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Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
How do you reconcile a belief of all that is, is unobservable and that you believe you require evidence to prove things which are? You must admit that your belief of the requirement of evidence over-rides your belief of all that exists is unobservable? They are mutually exclusive.
So you commit to atheism, even though you’re aware of the limits of the position? Why?
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Sooo...we should believe in whatever we can dream up, or what someone else has dreamed up, without any proof, just because we might not know everything that might be? Do I have that right?
"If God inspired the Bible, why is it such a piece of shit?" (Kaziglu Bey)
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01-18-2011, 06:31 PM
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#307
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I Live Here
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 20,925
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Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
Ghoul would make an analogy about excrement and leprechauns.
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Why would that be inappropriate, considering that you are a piece of shit who believes in leprechauns?
The Leprechauns do not forbid the drawing of Their images, as long as we color within the lines. ~ Ghoulslime H Christ, Prophet, Seer, Revelator, and Masturbator
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01-18-2011, 06:33 PM
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#308
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I Live Here
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 20,925
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Quote:
anthonyjfuchs wrote
...Do we have to justify our lack of belief in, say, the Loch Ness monster, leprechauns (sorry, ghoulie)...
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The leprechauns are quick to forgive, provided you pay the proper tithe.
The Leprechauns do not forbid the drawing of Their images, as long as we color within the lines. ~ Ghoulslime H Christ, Prophet, Seer, Revelator, and Masturbator
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01-18-2011, 07:30 PM
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#309
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I Live Here
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 23,211
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Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
So 90% of the world thinks something you don’t agree with, so you rant on a forum about how stupid they are? I think most people have ridiculous views on all forms of topics yet I don’t take the time to post on a forum outlining why they’re stupid. Never the twain shall meet.
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A great many people believe that the flow and balance of Chi in a home can be detected, controlled and arranged for some presumed benefit to the dwellers. These people do not hold the reins of power in my country, they do not make laws requiring every home to be subjected to this mystical process. They do not cause certain days to be set aside from legitimate commerce and governmental business to celebrate their special observances. They do not deny me the full rights and duties of citizenship. They do not whine in every medium that they are being victimized by the mean old tiny minority who disagree with them. Both Christians and Muslims do.
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What intrigues me is why many here have an intrinsic need to lambast[sic] religion and gods.
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Only religions and gods who work to control the lives and expression of others. We seldom "lambast" Quetzlcoatl, for instance, because it is not an active threat to our liberty. Followers of Odin do not proclaim that we are implicitly bad people who will burn forever and therefore have no right to full citizenship just for not believing as they do.
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Is it cathartic payback for an upbringing which involved heavy religious indoctrination?
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We are not rebelling against upbringing or against god since we do not believe one exists. We must speak out, and console each other, in self defense against the inroads that religions are attempting to make into the fabric of our secular society, trying to get bronze-age notions taught as science to our children, for instance. If you are unfamiliar with "Blue Laws", kindly look it up.
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Have you attributed many atrocities committed to be solely on the basis of religion?
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I acknowledge the atrocities committed due specifically to religion as specified in its defining documents while denying that my lack of belief can provide a warrant for any particular behavior, good or evil.
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Is it your logical duty to show the 90% why they’re wrong?
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It is my duty to protect myself and those I care for from religious assault but I have no need nor mandate to go out into all the world and preach un-belief. That is why you find me here in a dedicated forum and not stomping around other people's sites insulting them. You seldom see atheists going from door-to-door trying to spread the good news of un-belief.
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Seriously, why do you bother?
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Why does any group which is systematically maligned and deprived congregate for mutual support? A Christian would know this need to, at least briefly, escape persecution.
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It seems bizarre that you spend your free time denouncing something you can't define.
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I denounce religion which is easily identified as its practitioners. It is the religious who are unable to define the key elements of their peculiar faiths. What, exactly is this God you say exists? In olden times it was a very definite old white man sitting on a golden throne perched on a solid dome on which the stars were hung like little lamps. He had legs and a back and feet and a beard as "white as sheep's wool". Nowadays we are told that God is an invisible spirit of some mysterious non-substance with vague super powers ("God is timeless" for instance).
I bother because, whether some ratty little god exists or not, believers both historically and currently make life just as miserable as possible for those who do not agree with them.
I do not think that any religious person is insulted or harmed in any way by my activities on this forum. In particular, you are not a captive; you can go elsewhere any time you think your God and His slaves can't take some well-earned verbal abuse.
In a nutshell, everyone is free to believe whatever he or she wants, no matter how fine or how horrid, but they do not have a right to control me or to indoctrinate my children with their imaginary supernatural hogwash.
"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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01-18-2011, 07:47 PM
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#310
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I Live Here
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 23,211
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Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
You come to an raving atheist forum to discuss ‘other than jesus stuff’, is the same as someone else going to a raving anti-Semite forum to discuss ‘other than jew stuff’.
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You evidently think that Christianity is the only religion with nutbar ideas goofy enough to discuss. Jesus is only a johnny-come-lately to the full pantheon of over 10,000 gods we have known. In fact, I rather like the Jews; they don't give a damn whether I believe as they do or not and they do not try to take over or destroy public education.
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Care doesn’t come into it. Logically, spending free time to negate something you can’t define with the same arguments isn’t rewarding to a sane person. I can only assume that there is some implicit emotional need fulfilled.
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Goofballs are people too; they are unique and the theist contingent always brings a different flavor that spices up our attempts at civil discussions with them.
I am not so interested in the fact that they bring repetitions of the same old arguments as I am in the degree of variation they use to express those old arguments. Once in a while, a really innovative theist will appear with a banana, a jar of peanut-butter, or a croco-duck to talk about. Once in a while we will get a real noodle who is certain that there is no water in the universe except on Earth. This forum can be quite entertaining something like a soap-opera sometimes.
"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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01-18-2011, 11:10 PM
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#311
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I Live Here
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Around the way
Posts: 12,641
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Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
That you think i'm lying holds no value whatsoever. You may not like me but that does not equate to mean I must be lying.
So disgareeing with you is being contentious? Do you think this is the first time anyone has disgreed over discussing atheism?
Like I said, if you want me to go, ignore me.
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I'm not calling you a liar because I don't like you; I'm calling you a liar because you are a liar. You are claiming that the attacks upon you here were unprovoked and that's a lie, liar. You have invited every one of them from your first post here as Jerry74.
You said so, yourself, that you're not here to make friends. Well, your behavior here ensures that you won't gain any. That's by design, of course.
It's obvious that you come here very specifically for no other purpose than to show us what a contentious asshole you are. Well, mission accomplished. We all agree you're an asshole, which is why we are treating you like the asshole you are.
Otherwise, you don't even have a coherent argument to present to us, because you're not up to the challenge, intellectually. You know it. It's why your dumb, jealous ass is throwing the equivalent of virtual poo at us.
Why should I or anybody else here be compelled to ignore your assholish behavior instead of continually reminding you that you're an asshole? That's what I intend to do. Now you can ignore that, if you choose to.
"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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01-19-2011, 04:25 AM
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#312
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I Live Here
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 23,211
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Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
You're a minority if you're American. I'm from a country which is meant to be one of the least religious in the world, so maybe that's why I don't get the amount many here protest as I'm not exposed to religion on a daily level.
If I was I'd probably be one of you.
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The many impositions, both blunt and subtle, that religion makes in America are irritating at best and actually diminish our liberty (and occasionally our life) at their worst.
Here we can array and hone our arguments that we can use elsewhere.
I keep a forlorn hope that the next theist who visits will have a new and interesting justification for his claims. So far the field has been barren.
"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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01-19-2011, 05:09 AM
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#313
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I Live Here
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 23,211
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Concerning "free time", I am indirectly being paid to do this (company time, company resources).
"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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01-19-2011, 08:33 AM
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#314
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I Live Here
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 20,925
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Poor stupid Jerry has gone and made boo boo in his diaper again!
The Leprechauns do not forbid the drawing of Their images, as long as we color within the lines. ~ Ghoulslime H Christ, Prophet, Seer, Revelator, and Masturbator
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01-19-2011, 05:58 PM
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#315
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I Live Here
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 23,211
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Quote:
nkb wrote
It's almost like he's doiing it on purpose, but every time he corrects someone about spelling or grammar, he invariably makes at least one egregious mistake of his own.
Maybe he's just retarded.
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"egregious", now we have two words of the day, whatever shall we do?
Is Jerky's obstreperousness egregious or is his egregiousness obstreperous? Either way he is a vicious venomous vindictive vandal who, because of the shortcomings in his own life cannot stand to see others doing well. He will not be invited to any of my holiday celebrations; he would only piss in the punch just to ruin it for everyone else.
"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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