Carotta and the two JC's

My good friend Cal is fond of proposing that Carotta's theory of the two JC's is viable. And yet strangely he never responds to any of my detailed questions about the thesis. I wonder if he can bring himself to specifically answer the point I raise below.

Carotta condemns himself with his own words

carotta wrote

The main discrepancy lies in the fact that Caesar was stabbed and Jesus crucified. At this point the parallels seem to come to an end.

Well, exactly, in fact there were nothing but the most coincidental parallels in the first place, but anyway give Carotta some credit: he doesn't give up.

carotta wrote

Concerning Caesar we have (a) the conspiracy, (b) the assassination, (c) the posthumous trial, (d) the cremation, (e) the conflict about his heritage, (f) the succession.

Concerning Jesus we have (a) the conspiracy, (b) the capture, (c) the trial, (d) the crucifixion, (e) the burial, (f) the resurrection.

A structural correspondence is plain to see. The main discrepancy is that Caesar was murdered at the attack, whereas Jesus was merely captured.

This is really funny. The only thing that is plain to see is that there is no structural correspondance. Surely now Carotta will give up and go home ? NO !. And what is his fine explanation of this destruction of his argument ? He claims that Jesus must have been killed when he was captured and that the Romans put on trial, led through the city, offered up for release and crucified a dead man ! A dead man who can speak, nonetheless.

This is a fatal blow to his argument. He goes on to explain how the Gospel writers really meant to say something other than they actually wrote, forgetting for a moment that his whole argument rests on them secretly writing a disguised tale of Ceasar. Oooops.

It appears that Mr Carrota spent quite a lot of time on this thesis. Shame.

[a different tim]

Maybe you should do a poll to see how many of us actually believe it.

I'm not sure about the whole jesus was Julius Caesar thing, though their are some parrallels...

Oh well. At least someone could try to prove jesus actually existed and did everything the babble says he did...

[Choobus]

Thomas, do you want to be the pot or the kettle?

Maybe Cal is fixated on a book that makes no sense and is interpreted using flawed logic to reach a predetermined conclusion, but at least he admits to doing anal.

[calpurnpiso]

Choobus wrote

Thomas, do you want to be the pot or the kettle?

Maybe Cal is fixated on a book that makes no sense and is interpreted using flawed logic to reach a predetermined conclusion, but at least he admits to doing anal.

:lol::lol::lol:..anal is goood....:lol::lol::lol:......can one imagine not having that pleasurable evacuating gate?.....at the end of 80 years of living a human sans arse would grow to be the size of an Argentinosaurus!.....no wonder the sacred forbiden altar where Penis-Christ deposit its offerings is good to have......:lol:..Hmmmmm if I would write a book about it I'm certain you'd read it....:cool:

[Philboid Studge]

calpurnpiso wrote

:lol::lol::lol:..anal is goood....:lol::lol::lol:......can one imagine not having that pleasurable evacuating gate?.....at the end of 80 years of living a human sans arse would grow to be the size of an Argentinosaurus!.....no wonder the sacred forbiden altar where Penis-Christ deposit its offerings is good to have......:lol:..Hmmmmm if I would write a book about it I'm certain you'd read it....:cool:

Cal, I'm starting to realize -- based on the time of your posts -- the precise moment you open that 4th bottle of Grolsch. Salud! I'm having a Belgian beer myself (Westmalle). :)

[calpurnpiso]

Philboid Studge wrote

Cal, I'm starting to realize -- based on the time of your posts -- the precise moment you open that 4th bottle of Grolsch. Salud! I'm having a Belgian beer myself (Westmalle). :)

:lol:...I don't think is the Grolsch, for I do not drink till Sol Invictus goes down and down...bringing darkness for if I drink when he is up giving life to all living things Hypnos will attack me and his son Morpheus dance on my neurons. Sol is still radiant here in Arizona for it is only 16:30 (4:30 pm). Hmm...in 2 hours I'll be saying Zum Wohl to you.....or....Sante..or staniyasus...or...Saheteh.....or....mud in your eye....( I'll have to do research where the Brittish got that phrase from...:lol:

I think it is not the alcohol, by my imagination which is constantly overflowing that makes me come up with those ideas.......:lol::lol:

[calpurnpiso]

Thomas wrote:

"This is a fatal blow to his argument. He goes on to explain how the Gospel writers really meant to say something other than they actually wrote, forgetting for a moment that his whole argument rests on them secretly writing a disguised tale of Ceasar. Oooops. "

There is no fatal blow, for you are ignorant of Roman History and you fail to realize that the empire was inmense, cosmopolitan, had many gods and LANGUAGES who some were written from right to left ( hebrew, arabig, parthian) and others from left to right ( Latin and greek). Carotta doesn't have ALL of the answers like the idiotic asanine gospels that you believe are factual and confirm the existence of a person that is nowhere to be found in ancient historical accounts!! specially such a miracle worker god!!...

Carotta is backed up by HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS, which you have NOT read. These are facts:

Caesar existed, was a Flame Dialis at 18 years of age. His family the Iulii descended from Venus. A DOVE was the symbol of this divinity. Attia his niece ( mother of Octavius) had a virgin birth was impreganted by Apollo ( so Octavius was the SON OF GOD). Caesar was a Pontifex Maximus, in Greek ( the language spoken by the Roman aristocracy) is Archieros Megistus meaning Great Builder of Bridges iow CARPENTER. This is the title of head priest who has NO GOD for he rules over the flamines ( priests) who are priest of many gods ( Iuppiter, Mars ultor, Pomonalis, Luperci, etc etc ).
Caesar's name was GAIUS ( from Gaia=earth. Us=son of), so Galius Iulius Caesar was was Son of Venus and mother earth ( adam created from mud?). Caesar was invited by the conspirators Cassious LONGINUS and Brutus, to have dinner in the house of the latter. This is a historical FACT. They invited Caesar to dinner on the 14th of March for the conspirators to be assured their conspiracy had not been exposed. They asked Caesar what kind of death was best, to which he responded a sudden one. The point here is he had a LAST SUPPER.
Another interesting "coincidence" is that his friend was Nicomedes of Bythinia ( he EXISTED and is part of the historical record), while jesus had a friend's named Nicodemus in Bethany!!
One of the conspirators who stabbed Caesar was Cassius Longinus. The roman soldier who stabbed Jesus with a lance to see if he was dead was also named LONGINUSS.
Caesar was famous for his Clementiae, he FORGAVE his ENEMIES ( sinners) ( turn the other cheek?).
Caesar had a TEMPLE (Temple of Divus Iulius whose ruins can be SEEN at the Forum) and a CULT ( cult to divus iulius) to worship him stablished by Octavius. This emperor was viewed as Divi Filius (Son of GOD) and was WORSHIPED along his father Divus Iulius in tha temple ( the cult MERGED initiating the cult of the emperors in later times).
Caesar wore a GRASS CROWN, this type of crown is not made out of leafs but grass sticks of the fields CONQUERED during battles. Later they were stylized and made ouf of gold.
Roman soldiers carried their weapons and tools on a CROSS type structure, this is a TROPAEUM which is always SYMBOLIC of victory.
Caesar was declared a GOD while he was alive!! His battles were viewed as MIRACLES, and they, unlike the stupid fairy tales of jesus "life", OCCURRED and are DOCUMENTED.
During Caesar's funeral his image was ERECTED on a TROPAEUM his body covered by a red tunic and wearing his grass crown of VICTORY. Marc Anthony was a FLAMEN DIVUS IULIUS. ( Priest of the god Iulius) and during his funeral he gave the euology constantly removing Caesar's red robe from the tropaeum, so people could see the wounds. ( this was on the IMAGE of Caesar for his actual body was laying on a bier that looked like a miniature temple of Venus, ready to be cremated).

There was an EYE WITNESS to all things done by Caesar. This man fought along with caesar cross the Rubicon with him, was made a Praetorian prefect and wrote the Historiae ( history of Caesar and the civil wars). Appianus and Plutarch COPIED from him!! His name was ASINIUS Pollio. By all the people of the time, assinius Pollio was writing the life of the GOD!!. His name means ASS COLT....alas he EXISTED. It is interesting tho see that Jesus was riding an ASS and was been received into the holy city ( the ONLY holy city in t hose days was ROME!!) with PALMS an honors. I suggest you get educated in ROMAN TRIUMPHS, PROCESSIONS.
Iulius Caesar CHANGED the calendar has a month named after him, he created the codix ( book form) as opossed to the scrolls. Jesus created only HOT AIR, ZERO...
iulius caesar has the COMET of 44 bc, seen in his COINS, as representative of his Genius (spirit) in the shape of an X with a line topped by a little circle on top, disecting the X. Jesus "monogramI is very similar and the line with a circle on top mutated into a P.

So, you have to KNOW Roman history and connect the dots to be able to clearly see Iulius Caesar worship ( cult of divus iulius) mutated into Jesus after centuries of misinterpretations and LOST inforamation in such a vast empire!. But the EVIDENCE is all there, if one connects the dots KNOW where to look, and is not infected with Christ-psychosis. I compare the Divus Iulius cult and the resulting Christianity as a book written by an obstentrician where it narrates the penis penetrating, the ovulation the sperm fertilizing the ovum, the growth of the embrio, the birth etc etc..then a version of this book is written for children using allegories about the stork, etc etc.

The Historiae of Assinius Pollio is the REAL book, and the Gospel BOOK is the version used for the uneducated, superstitious and ignorant.....:lol: Learn about the Roman Empire and the life of Caesar, then you'll understand, there is NO QUESTION Jesus was Caesar. About Pollio.

Gaius Asinius Pollio http://www.britannica.com/eb/article...ry=curio&ct=eb

then You can start perusing over these:

Appianus Historia Romana libri XIII-XVIII, Bella Civilia Libri I-V. Plutarchus Vita Parallelae (ca 60 ce), Nicolaus Damascenus ( ca 64 ) Vita Cesaris , Velleius "Historiae Romana" ( Latin historian ca 60 ce), Dio Cassius ( ca 150's ce) READ his Historia Romana ( libri XXXVII). Cicero ( 106 bce- 43bce).

Don't FALL asleep when you read them!!!.....but remember the TRUTH will set you free....and NO, I did not write them...:lol:

calpurnpiso wrote

Thomas wrote:

"This is a fatal blow to his argument. He goes on to explain how the Gospel writers really meant to say something other than they actually wrote, forgetting for a moment that his whole argument rests on them secretly writing a disguised tale of Ceasar. Oooops. "

There is no fatal blow, for you are ignorant of Roman History and you fail to realize that the empire was inmense, cosmopolitan, had many gods and LANGUAGES who some were written from right to left ( hebrew, arabig, parthian) and others from left to right ( Latin and greek). Carotta doesn't have ALL of the answers like the idiotic asanine gospels that you believe are factual and confirm the existence of a person that is nowhere to be found in ancient historical accounts!! specially such a miracle worker god!!...

I see that you are unable to answer my questions. Carotta's theory has a fatal flaw in that the deaths of Ceasar and Jesus are not at all similar. Can you address why it is so different, if in fact the gospels are based on the life and death of Ceasar ?

calpurnpiso wrote

Carotta is backed up by HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS, which you have NOT read. These are facts:

Caesar existed, was a Flame Dialis at 18 years of age. His family the Iulii descended from Venus. A DOVE was the symbol of this divinity. Attia his niece ( mother of Octavius) had a virgin birth was impreganted by Apollo ( so Octavius was the SON OF GOD). Caesar was a Pontifex Maximus, in Greek ( the language spoken by the Roman aristocracy) is Archieros Megistus meaning Great Builder of Bridges iow CARPENTER. This is the title of head priest who has NO GOD for he rules over the flamines ( priests) who are priest of many gods ( Iuppiter, Mars ultor, Pomonalis, Luperci, etc etc ).

What is the parallel between Jesus and Ceasar in terms of Ceasar being a Flame Dialis at 18 ? What was the equivalent in the life of Jesus ?
What is the equivalent in the life of Jesus of being descended from Venus ?
Jesus is claimed to have had the virgin birth NOT his niece. There is no parallel here.
The greek word for carpenter used in the gospels is tekton (actually means something like "workman"). And anyway it's a huge stretch from bridge builder to carpenter. Only a desparate person would try to make that leap. No parallel here.
As you point out Ceasar was polytheistic. Jesus is strongly mon-theistic and recognises His place as part of the Godhead, not as the Godhead. No parallel here.

calpurnpiso wrote

Caesar's name was GAIUS ( from Gaia=earth. Us=son of), so Galius Iulius Caesar was was Son of Venus and mother earth ( adam created from mud?). Caesar was invited by the conspirators Cassious LONGINUS and Brutus, to have dinner in the house of the latter. This is a historical FACT. They invited Caesar to dinner on the 14th of March for the conspirators to be assured their conspiracy had not been exposed. They asked Caesar what kind of death was best, to which he responded a sudden one. The point here is he had a LAST SUPPER.

Ceasar was created from mud, a human. Jesus was divine at birth. No parallel.
Jesus had his last supper with his disciples not his enemies. The parallel would have been for Jesus to have had a last supper with the Jewish priests. Who, don't forget, came to arrest him and hand him over to the Romans. Not like your conspiritors who actually killed him. No parallel here.
Who wouldn't say that a quick death was preferable ? Hardly a convincing parallel.

calpurnpiso wrote

Another interesting "coincidence" is that his friend was Nicomedes of Bythinia ( he EXISTED and is part of the historical record), while jesus had a friend's named Nicodemus in Bethany!!
One of the conspirators who stabbed Caesar was Cassius Longinus. The roman soldier who stabbed Jesus with a lance to see if he was dead was also named LONGINUSS.

I'm not so interested in the vague parallel of two people with similar (but not the same) names, and more interested in the lack of parallels with the other characters in the story. Who were Ceasar's twelve disciples ? Which of them were fishermen ?
The name longiniss does not appear in any Bible text, only in ancient church tradition. No parallel

calpurnpiso wrote

Caesar was famous for his Clementiae, he FORGAVE his ENEMIES ( sinners) ( turn the other cheek?).
Caesar had a TEMPLE (Temple of Divus Iulius whose ruins can be SEEN at the Forum) and a CULT ( cult to divus iulius) to worship him stablished by Octavius. This emperor was viewed as Divi Filius (Son of GOD) and was WORSHIPED along his father Divus Iulius in tha temple ( the cult MERGED initiating the cult of the emperors in later times).
Caesar wore a GRASS CROWN, this type of crown is not made out of leafs but grass sticks of the fields CONQUERED during battles. Later they were stylized and made ouf of gold.

Does everybody who forgve their enemies have a claim to be the real Jesus ? Hardly convincing.
Jesus did not have a temple.
I don't deny that there was Ceasar worship and a Ceasar cult. So what ?
It's hardly surprising that Ceasar (a ruler) wore a crown. The whole point of Jesus being made to wear a crown of thorns was to symbolise his claim to be the king of the jews. Remember Jesus was not a ruler of any sort. No parallel here.

calpurnpiso wrote

Roman soldiers carried their weapons and tools on a CROSS type structure, this is a TROPAEUM which is always SYMBOLIC of victory.
Caesar was declared a GOD while he was alive!! His battles were viewed as MIRACLES, and they, unlike the stupid fairy tales of jesus "life", OCCURRED and are DOCUMENTED.
During Caesar's funeral his image was ERECTED on a TROPAEUM his body covered by a red tunic and wearing his grass crown of VICTORY. Marc Anthony was a FLAMEN DIVUS IULIUS. ( Priest of the god Iulius) and during his funeral he gave the euology constantly removing Caesar's red robe from the tropaeum, so people could see the wounds. ( this was on the IMAGE of Caesar for his actual body was laying on a bier that looked like a miniature temple of Venus, ready to be cremated).

A tropaeum was used to display the armour of the victorius soldier wasn't it ? I don't know if you've noticed this but Jesus was killed on a cross. Ceasar was killed by an assassin, with a weapon. There is no parallel here. In fact as I pointed out the deaths of Ceasar and Jesus are so different as to show what a crock of shit this whole idea of Carrota's really is.

calpurnpiso wrote

There was an EYE WITNESS to all things done by Caesar. This man fought along with caesar cross the Rubicon with him, was made a Praetorian prefect and wrote the Historiae ( history of Caesar and the civil wars). Appianus and Plutarch COPIED from him!! His name was ASINIUS Pollio. By all the people of the time, assinius Pollio was writing the life of the GOD!!. His name means ASS COLT....alas he EXISTED. It is interesting tho see that Jesus was riding an ASS and was been received into the holy city ( the ONLY holy city in t hose days was ROME!!) with PALMS an honors. I suggest you get educated in ROMAN TRIUMPHS, PROCESSIONS.
Iulius Caesar CHANGED the calendar has a month named after him, he created the codix ( book form) as opossed to the scrolls. Jesus created only HOT AIR, ZERO...
iulius caesar has the COMET of 44 bc, seen in his COINS, as representative of his Genius (spirit) in the shape of an X with a line topped by a little circle on top, disecting the X. Jesus "monogramI is very similar and the line with a circle on top mutated into a P.

Now you really are stretching the truth. How many words do we still have that were written by Pollio ? None ! Not a single word. Nada. Nothing. Zip. Who knows what he wrote ? Not you, that's for sure.
Are you saying that Ceasar rode Pollio into Rome. Otherwise where is the parallel, just the hint of something in the name. Based on your previous translations of carpenter, I'm not sure should trust you on this one.
Your point about the calendar is illuminating. Thanks for pointing out an area where there is clearly no parallel.
I've told you before that I don't deny the Christian church took existing symbols as part of it's iconography. What's your point here ? How does that show that there was some copying of Ceasar's story that created Christianity ?

calpurnpiso wrote

So, you have to KNOW Roman history and connect the dots to be able to clearly see Iulius Caesar worship ( cult of divus iulius) mutated into Jesus after centuries of misinterpretations and LOST inforamation in such a vast empire!. But the EVIDENCE is all there, if one connects the dots KNOW where to look, and is not infected with Christ-psychosis. I compare the Divus Iulius cult and the resulting Christianity as a book written by an obstentrician where it narrates the penis penetrating, the ovulation the sperm fertilizing the ovum, the growth of the embrio, the birth etc etc..then a version of this book is written for children using allegories about the stork, etc etc.

I'm sorry but "connecting the dots" is just a bullshit phrase that means nothing other than you can't present the evidence. If you want to convince me of your thesis you'll need to do better than this.

calpurnpiso wrote

The Historiae of Assinius Pollio is the REAL book, and the Gospel BOOK is the version used for the uneducated, superstitious and ignorant.....:lol: Learn about the Roman Empire and the life of Caesar, then you'll understand, there is NO QUESTION Jesus was Caesar. About Pollio.

Gaius Asinius Pollio http://www.britannica.com/eb/article...ry=curio&ct=eb

Is it a real book ? Are you sure ? The britannica entry says that his contemporary history was "lost".

It took some while to put this post together. I hope you'll be respectful enough to come back with a response that addresses specifically the points I've raised. Last chance, cal.

The short answer to Cal is that he is cherry-picking the details of the life of Jesus and Ceasar to find the (supposed) correspondences. The only conclusion that would be logical would be one that calculated the aspects of their lives that are similar divided by *every* aspect of their lives (getting tougher already, huh?). Then, you'd have to take two random people and see how many aspects of their lives are similar (how many other people use Crest toothpast like me?) and see how different that is from the supposed Jesus/Ceasar similarity ratio.

Cal, ol' buddy, it ain't gonna happen.

[The Judge]

Shit! HeWhoAsks uses the same toothpaste as me?! Woah, this has profound implications for my sense of self! (are we the same person?) :lol:

Good example. The similarities in Carottas theory are interesting, but essentially appear to be flawed I would have to agree that at present this theory looks iffy to say the least. It'd be a nice idea and lend some weight to athiests arguments if it were true, but it's pretty clear to see that it's not.

[Tooold]

"A tropaeum was used to display the armour of the victorius soldier wasn't it ? I don't know if you've noticed this but Jesus was killed on a cross. Ceasar was killed by an assassin, with a weapon. There is no parallel here."

I'm not sure how you could have possibly have read the book and then spouted this paragraph?

I will however point out the thing that stopped me dead in my tracks while reading it. I asked a Muslim friend what the Muslim view of Jesus was and recall him saying how Jesus was considered a prophet but a normal man, not God or a son of God, and also that he was NOT crucified.

Not crucified?

No. According to Islam, what they saw was not Jesus on the cross, it was just a likeness, an image of him.

[mondrian]

Tooold wrote

According to Islam, what they saw was not Jesus on the cross, it was just a likeness, an image of him.

That will fcuk that roman candles off a tad.
Maybe there's a point to Islam after all.

Did you know that penile extension tablets don't work?

[Tooold]

It directly supports what Carrota says. He wasn't crucified, it was just an effigy.

In a sense you can say Islam is a branch of Christianity, in that both believe in Jesus. The actual point they disagree on IS the whole 'son of god' and crucifixion thing. Carrota makes the case that he BECAME a god AFTER his death, and that it was an effigy, not a crucifixion.

That, right there, was the split. One group branched away. We tend to think of Islam coming 600 years later but those are the roots, it seems?

However if penis pills is the level of conversation around here then perhaps I'm wasting my time.

[mondrian]

Tooold wrote

It directly supports what Carrota says. He wasn't crucified, it was just an effigy.

In a sense you can say Islam is a branch of Christianity, in that both believe in Jesus. The actual point they disagree on IS the whole 'son of god' and crucifixion thing. Carrota makes the case that he BECAME a god AFTER his death, and that it was an effigy, not a crucifixion.

That, right there, was the split. One group branched away. We tend to think of Islam coming 600 years later but those are the roots, it seems?

However if penis pills is the level of conversation around here then perhaps I'm wasting my time.

Greetings and felicitations.

Consider, for but the merest hint of time, if you will, the name of this most hallowed and revered place. It is called the Raving Atheists Forum. Is that not a clue as to its content and those that roam free without let of hindrance?

The last time I talked about religion, they did this to me:



This is yet another clue as to the general ambiance of a residence that I hope will, in time, become a home from home for my poor degenerated and evil mind.

If you would like to join in the banter and generally run amok, then I would like to extend a cordial welcome to our most hallowed halls.

If you would like to talk religion, then that's another matter, but I dare say that there are some who would entertain such posts (yawn).

I understand that the forum has an outstanding position for a resident troll. The current one, to be quite honest, is a complete twat of the first water. He isn't even capable of organising a shagfest in a brothel. Should this be of interest to you, then please feel free to apply. I dare say that there would be some who would be sufficiently interested to read it and nod sagely in way that is unique only to them. As for me, I couldn't give a rat's ass.

Can I suggest that you at least give this forum every opportunity. Maybe just hang around for a spell, read some posts and maybe, at some point, join in. Regardless of the foul-mouthed bunch of ass-holes they appear to be, they are actually very intelligent and hide it well.

Anyways, whatever you decide, personally, I couldn't give a wet wank.