Yes...The Old Testament Laws Still Apply

[thomastwo]

Demigod79 wrote

I don't see anything in the OT prophecies and laws that indicate that someone must die a sacrificial death to fulfill the law. I think this is just later Christian interpretation.

I think the system of animal sacrifice foreshadows the purpose of the perfect sacrificial death to absolve sin.

Demigod79 wrote

That's quite a kingdom then. In the past century alone there were two world wars, various economic crises, an earthquake big enough to tilt the earth's axis, etc. If Jesus died to bring about this world then his life was clearly wasted. I would not call this paradise on earth, would you?

Like I said, Jesus specifically predicted continued turmoil. But the death of Jesus started an era of Grace that starts off the Kingdom. Individuals can find heaven on earth right now, and work to extend it. Apologies for the preaching. But you did ask.

Demigod79 wrote

I think it's also telling that Jesus indicated very clearly that only those who adhere to the law will inherit the kingdom. I think T2 and others are reading into the passage, putting words into Jesus' mouth (this is not something that even an atheist like myself would do!).

So, from your "plain" reading what did Jesus mean when he said he would fulfil the law. How do you know that your reading is correct?

[thomastwo]

Irreligious wrote

Aww. Have I been harrassing the sweet, widdle preacher man? I'm sorry I interrupted your sermon. Perhaps I should leave this little chapel you set up for yourself here and seek out a sanctuary of my own. Maybe I'll call it the Raving Atheists Forum.

Yep. I think I might do that.

Don't be stupid. You are the one who is demanding to discuss this topic of who thinks what of others. I'm just playing along by answering your questions.

Again I see that you are backing off your claims in the face of evidence. Evidence that was obvious to anybody with a fair, unbiased mind.

Irreligious wrote

But you are the squirrel. You still don't get that?

This is a really dumb squirrel. Just saying.

I don't think you understood the reference.

[Demigod79]

thomastwo wrote

I think the system of animal sacrifice foreshadows the purpose of the perfect sacrificial death to absolve sin.

Again, interpretation. There was nothing in the OT that indicated that the system of animal sacrifices was to end.

thomastwo wrote

Like I said, Jesus specifically predicted continued turmoil. But the death of Jesus started an era of Grace that starts off the Kingdom. Individuals can find heaven on earth right now, and work to extend it. Apologies for the preaching. But you did ask.

No, Jesus predicted that turmoil would preceed the coming of the kingdom. There was no indication that turmoil would continue after the kingdom was established (in which case, what's the point of the kingdom?).

Your comment about heaven being right now makes me question the whole point of your religion. Stuff like that suggests that your definition of heaven and fulfillment are entirely subjective. Let me ask you, if you were living in the poorest region of Africa, slowly dying of starvation and disease, would you consider the kingdom of God to have arrived? Aren't you being a little bit ethno-centric and selfish in saying the kingdom of God is here just because you happen to be in the minority of people who (thanks largely to science) have a decent standard of living?

thomastwo wrote

So, from your "plain" reading what did Jesus mean when he said he would fulfil the law. How do you know that your reading is correct?

Are you blind? It says right there in the text! By "everything is fulfilled" Jesus meant the end of the world as we know it and the establishment of God's kingdom on earth (where the dead will be raised and judgment will be handed down). And yet, the world goes on the same as before. Jesus predicted some amazing things before the end (e.g., stars will fall down, moon will not give its light, etc.) but none of that happened (unless you think all of that is symbolic or metaphorical as well -- in which case, what did Jesus actually predict?).

[Smellyoldgit]

How long before 'Mysterious Ways' makes an appearance?

[Irreligious]

thomastwo wrote

Don't be stupid. You are the one who is demanding to discuss this topic of who thinks what of others. I'm just playing along by answering your questions.

Well, that's mighty generous of you to play along. You're very good at answering questions. I can hardly wait for more of your in depth explanations of how an alleged Jesus completely fullfilled Mosaic law and how heaven on Earth now exists for those who can find it.

thomastwo wrote

Again I see that you are backing off your claims in the face of evidence. Evidence that was obvious to anybody with a fair, unbiased mind.

And which of my many claims would that be? My claim to know the alleged mind of the alleged creator of the universe?

thomastwo wrote

I don't think you understood the reference.

Of course not. It was such a sophisticated reference.

[Irreligious]

Smellyoldgit wrote

How long before 'Mysterious Ways' makes an appearance?

Let's not spoil T2's enjoyment of this forum. You know the Raving Atheists forum was created specifically for him to come here and preach, unfettered by atheistic cynicism.

[Irreligious]

And Demigod, don't expect anything approaching a linear argument from T2.

If he deigns to answer your question about how heaven on Earth exists for those who are being starved, raped and killed in Darfur, it will either be something dismissive or completely unrelated to what you asked.

That's just how our boy rolls. Like the goddamned Energizer Bunny.

[Smellyoldgit]

Irreligious wrote

If he deigns to answer your question about how heaven on Earth exists for those who are being starved, raped and killed in Darfur, it will either be something dismissive or completely unrelated to what you asked.

I tells ya, it's Mysterious Ways and we ain't meant to understand or question!

[Irreligious]

Smellyoldgit wrote

I tells ya, it's Mysterious Ways and we ain't meant to understand or question!

The mystery is why idiots, like T2 and the unlamentably departed Lily, come here to spew this drivel as if they're accomplishing something. They willfully ignore everything that's said to them, except the most vile insults.

[fiatlux]

thomastwo wrote

But everything was accomplished.

"It is finished" could be interpreted as anything. Or maybe it was just for dramatic effect. Try again.

[Kate]

Dramatic jeebus iz teh dramatic.

[Smellyoldgit]

Irreligious wrote

The mystery is why idiots, like T2 and the unlamentably departed Lily, come here to spew this drivel as if they're accomplishing something. They willfully ignore everything that's said to them, except the most vile insults.

I suspect that deep down in the bowels of their theisty brain compartment, they do realise their faith is indeed nothing more that wishful thinking, a big cuddly bunny that nicely explains our origins and softens the spectre of death. They can twist and interpret anything they choose into the supporting ‘scriptures’ and to try and reason with them on anything vaguely related to their faith is futile. I do feel quite sorry for the sad bastards.
Perhaps they do take things away and have an occasional honest reappraisal of their bullshit, but I doubt it.
This is a nice video from a couple who did have the fortitude to do just that.

Honest Folk

Who was it who said people rarely change their minds in public?

[fiatlux]

Kate wrote

Dramatic jeebus iz teh dramatic.

[Irreligious]

Wow. That was an inspiring video, Smelly.

At first, I was very worried for this couple, but then I considered that they already come from wildly different backgrounds -- him being white and Pentecostal, and she being black, Haitian and Roman Catholic-- and have already overcome an awful lot.

Perhaps, they can also withstand the intense backlash from those who fear and hate atheists.

[thomastwo]

Demigod79 wrote

Again, interpretation. There was nothing in the OT that indicated that the system of animal sacrifices was to end.

Daniel 9:26-27 predicts the end of animal sacrifice. Jesus linked this prophecy to the destruction of the temple in AD70.

Demigod79 wrote

No, Jesus predicted that turmoil would preceed the coming of the kingdom. There was no indication that turmoil would continue after the kingdom was established (in which case, what's the point of the kingdom?).

Matthew 24:6-7 predicts wars and rumors of wars with the rider "but the end is not yet"

Demigod79 wrote

Your comment about heaven being right now makes me question the whole point of your religion. Stuff like that suggests that your definition of heaven and fulfillment are entirely subjective. Let me ask you, if you were living in the poorest region of Africa, slowly dying of starvation and disease, would you consider the kingdom of God to have arrived? Aren't you being a little bit ethno-centric and selfish in saying the kingdom of God is here just because you happen to be in the minority of people who (thanks largely to science) have a decent standard of living?

Are you blind? It says right there in the text! By "everything is fulfilled" Jesus meant the end of the world as we know it and the establishment of God's kingdom on earth (where the dead will be raised and judgment will be handed down). And yet, the world goes on the same as before. Jesus predicted some amazing things before the end (e.g., stars will fall down, moon will not give its light, etc.) but none of that happened (unless you think all of that is symbolic or metaphorical as well -- in which case, what did Jesus actually predict?).

Luke 17:20-21 - Jesus says that the Kingdom of God has already arrived.