Argument to satisfy atheistic and theistic sensibilities

Andrew66 · 03-30-2013, 11:21 AM

Hello Atheist and Theist alike!!.

Eureka!, I think I've found an argument which should be acceptable to any Atheist or Theist alike.

1) God is defined in all three monotheistic religions as an eternal (uncreated) personal being who purposively created our material world. Further, it is taught that at a minimum belief in the existance of such a God is a requirement to achieve a desirable afterlife.

2) While there is no rationale or compelling evidence which asserts God's existence, there are yet many unsolved questions in the physical world where the existence of such a God may provide a possible answer (eg. explanation of origin of life begetting universe/multiverse as first cause). In other words the premiss of God existence holds explanatory power.

3) Therefore, as existence in a God cannot be ruled out, and God's existence hold explanatory power, one can - if one desires - HOPE that a God exists.

4) HOPE in the existence of something is the weakest form of belief. For example, I do not "hope" that A Santa Claus exists, but one can HOPE that a God exists.

5) One can be an Atheist - but still HOPE that a God exists. For example, An atheist can say - "As there is no evidence for God I don't believe that God exists - but I hope I'm wrong".

6) A world view compatible with posit (5) - given that in the unlikely event a God does exist - can according to religious teachings provide the atheist a desirable afterlife.

ILOVEJESUS · 03-30-2013, 12:41 PM

What of the fuckiest ?

ILOVEJESUS · 03-30-2013, 12:41 PM

I do hope this shit is not real too! I hope Battlestar Galactica happens, or Buck Rogers. Wilma Dearing rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Andrew66 · 03-30-2013, 01:01 PM

Quote:

ILOVEJESUS wrote

I do hope this shit is not real too! .

Hi ILOVEJESUS

If you hope that the existence of God is not true, than it would seem you are just a very tiny wee bit worried that God may be true. Why is that?

dogpet · 03-30-2013, 03:58 PM

Andrew, if there is, then that's an entirely unfair situation, we can only go on what we have in front of us.
What you propose is as useful as wishing for an extra life in chocolate heaven. Grow up ffs.

Andrew66 · 03-30-2013, 05:14 PM

Quote:

dogpet wrote

Andrew, if there is, then that's an entirely unfair situation, we can only go on what we have in front of us.

Dogpet, I think I'm actually basically in agreement with you.

I agree that it would be unfair that a requirement to recieve the benefit of a desirable afterlife is a belief in a God's existance - since such God has not provided any compelling evidence of his/her existence! Indeed, by this requirement all rationally minded people would be doomed to hell - and that would be unfair!

That is why I'm arguing hypothetically speaking of course (assuming God's existence) that perhaps the religious belief bar is lowered to HOPE (which is a bare minimum level of belief) to make the requirement fair.

What I mean is, it would not be unfair if God only expected an individual at time of judgement to proclaim that he/she had at least a HOPE in God's existence. This would be like saying "I believed in you (God) to the limit that I possibly could, given the evidence I was presented - i.e. I HOPED that you would exist.

Indeed I've notice when one attends a Christian church, the word Hope is often interchanged with faith - and belief. There is a big difference - A Hope in God's existence is attainable to the rationale person, while faith, or a substantial belief, to anyone who has really examined the evidence (or lack of) is of course not.

So the moral of the story... if you die and find yourself presented before Jesus Christ at the great white throne room to recieve judgement - and he asks you if you believed in him - say "I hoped you'd exist" (meaning you held a bare minimum of belief - belief nonetheless) - then you should be - at least according to religious teachings - OK!!

ILOVEJESUS · 03-31-2013, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Andrew66 wrote

Hi ILOVEJESUS

If you hope that the existence of God is not true, than it would seem you are just a very tiny wee bit worried that God may be true. Why is that?

Where did I say I hope God isn't real? I stated that the question is absurd and of no difference to me hoping there is a Father Christmas to cut my Christmas spending down. Or hope that in 500 years a man frozen in space returns to Earth to live in a time that is not his own, Biddy Biddy Biddy. Why hope there is a God? What God would I hope for? Would my hope God be the same as yours? Should I also hope Unicorns exist? Hoping there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow serves what purpose? Atheists do not believe in a God. Trying to muddy that water just gets your knickers dirty.

Michael · 03-31-2013, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Andrew66 wrote

So the moral of the story... if you die and find yourself presented before Jesus Christ at the great white throne room to recieve judgement - and he asks you if you believed in him - say "I hoped you'd exist" (meaning you held a bare minimum of belief - belief nonetheless) - then you should be - at least according to religious teachings - OK!!

What if I die and end up in front of Allah, or Ganesha?
"I'm sorry, I didn't believe in you but I did hope Jesus would be real!"

Right. I bet you're convinced by Pascal's Wager, too.

Smellyoldgit · 03-31-2013, 08:03 AM

Andrew was a boring cunt when he first dropped by.
I hoped he'd learn to not be such a tedious fool, but it looks like I'm out of luck.

Kinich Ahau · 03-31-2013, 08:16 AM

I'm hopeless as well.

Andrew66 · 03-31-2013, 09:48 AM

Quote:

ILOVEJESUS wrote

Why hope there is a God? What God would I hope for?

Why hope there is a God?

I"m sure you'll agree that one of the strongest drives we humans have is to survive. Unless you are presently suicidal - you want to live. I think most would agree - death - which on a naturalistic view means the ends to one's very existence (no more sex, drugs and rock and roll!!) -sucks.

So how do we escape death?. At present with science and medicine we can't. At least I think avoidance of death (by replacing body parts etc. - or storing one's essence in a computer when our bodies give out) is likely not going to happen in our generation, and even if it does - only the very richest of us may afford to pay for the service!

It just so happens that drastic claims were made by key individuals at select times throughout - namely Jesus Christ and his apostles, and others such as Mohammed. Basically they stated that they had reveiled communication from God (that alleged powerful entity defined as the creator of the universe) which addressed the concerns of a promissed afterlife.

I'll just cite three such key claims - which have been historicaly recorded.

John 3:16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life".

John 11:25-26 "Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die"

Mark 16:15-16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved".

So in case you've been sleeping at the wheel, its these types of claims (as irrational as they appear - extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence after all) which have driven billions upon billions of people to religion! People want to escape death - and these claims (or similar claims like these), are at present humanities only presented HOPE to do so!

My only point on this blog is to point out that I recognize that it is unfair to ask a rationale person to believe in God (such as the above three testimonies mandate to achieve an afterlife), as a belief in God - without evidence of God's existence - is irrational.

That is why I suggest that it might be OK to just HOPE that God exists (as HOPE is the weakest form of belief) - thus satisfying - to a bare minimum - the religious mandates.

Which God to believe in? - very hard question. Basically - if you place any weight in religious historical claims which have achieved great impact factor, its between The Christian God Jehovah (along with God's Son Jesus Christ - and the Holy Spirit of God - they are professed work as a team called the TRINITY) and the Muslim God Allah.

Both Christians and Muslims accept the historical records contained in the BIBLE as the holy inspired word of GOD.

Andrew66 · 03-31-2013, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Michael wrote

What if I die and end up in front of Allah, or Ganesha?
"I'm sorry, I didn't believe in you but I did hope Jesus would be real!"

MIchael, you are adressing a major debate which has raged between Christians, Muslims, and Jews for a very long time.

I'm not an expert on the more eastern religions such as Hinduism and Budhism, but I don't think that these religions have made any historical claims that you would even meet their God for judgement - so I would focus my attention on choice between the three great monotheistic religions.

In answer to your question what I recommendtuation, regardless of which God you face, is to simply state that you Hoped for the existence of God the Creator (along with promiss of a heavenly afterlife) as this belief is common between the Jews, Christians and Muslims. If the God is offended you didn't recite belief in him perfectly by correct name, simply state:

In the case that the Christian God is real - that please forgive my inability to resolve this issue, but if Jesus did die on the cross as a mechanism for our forgiveness of sins I appreciate that and am thankful for his sacrifice. I have wondered about this story, and have been hopeful of its truth.

In the case the Muslim God is real - that please forgive my inability to resolve this issue, but I fundamentally hoped for the existence of one God the Creator - and now that I know I am pleased to call him Allah.

In the case the Jewish God is real - that please forgive my inability to resolve this issue, but I fundamentally hoped for the existence of one God the Creator - and now that I know I am please to call him Jehovah.

I can't see how which ever God could be too mad with you if you are armed with these concepts and remarks upon meeting him/her.

The key may very well be that an individual would be in trouble if they said

"I hoped you wouldn't exist". This would imply the individual was guilty of evil doings and was afraid of God's existence and possible punishment in the afterlife)

or

"I firmly had the postive belief that you didn't exist". This is being an Atheist with a capital A. A God may see that as the individual holding an arrogant and ungrateful natures - no offence!!

Michael, are you an Atheist with a capital A, or a lower case a. ?

Cheers

Andrew66

Michael · 03-31-2013, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Andrew66 wrote

Michael, are you an Atheist with a capital A, or a lower case a. ?

Depends if it's at the start of a sentence or not.

Quote:

"I firmly had the postive belief that you didn't exist". This is being an Atheist with a capital A. A God may see that as the individual holding an arrogant and ungrateful natures - no offence!!

You have shown now, over at least two different threads, that you have absolutely no idea what atheists think. You have developed a classical "strawman" idea for certain parts*, overly simplified on others, and grouped together ideas as being central to atheism that are simply not the case.
You are arrogant about your ideas and don't seem to actually care what we have to say about it, hoping rather to "impart your wisdom down to us" rather than take in the faults we may find. You are arrogant and ungrateful - no offence!!

*"The positive belief god definitely does not exist" is a very rare idea, that most atheists - myself and most on this site included - do not hold. It is a gross mis-representation designed to be easier refuted than the actual beliefs most atheists have.

Michael · 03-31-2013, 03:04 PM

Upon reflection, I've come to think that you probably won't grasp at the nuances in my post, so I will break it down a little. My point was two-fold:

1) Saying something offensive and then adding "no offence!" to it does not remove the offensiveness of the statement, nor does it absolve you from saying offensive things. You don't want to offend people? Don't say offensive things. Rather, adding that to the end shows that you knew your statement was offensive enough to go to the effort of telling people "no offense" but did not care about those people enough to not actually offend them. That in itself is offensive.

2) You don't actually understand what atheism is. There is no such thing as "capital Atheism" and "lower-case atheism". There are atheists with differing ideas about gods, some DO even go so far as to say "I am absolutely certain that a god does not exist", but a lot - myself included - see the idea of a god as simply unnecessary, as such until sufficient evidence is given, there is no need to believe in one. We do not "hope" for a god to be true and could not make ourselves do so. For you to think that an omnipotent god would be fooled by our pretending to hope they existed is ridiculous.

dogpet · 03-31-2013, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Andrew66 wrote

That is why I'm arguing hypothetically speaking of course (assuming God's existence) that perhaps the religious belief bar is lowered to HOPE (which is a bare minimum level of belief) to make the requirement fair.

Because a hope for anything other than the celestial pillow would be just as viable, while not enabling liars on earth who gain influence & money from peddling invisible afterlifes.
We've had a few on here trying to encourage cristain enablement. To me it's the lowest form of missionary work, & that makes it pretty low. Hang your head in shame.