Politicks

[dogpet]

Noodle wrote

Mmm, I guess you're right that no one owns anything fairly. I often think we're just animals fighting over territory.

Perfectly put.

I think I capitalize "the Holocaust" because "holocaust" can be a general thing like, "World War III will result in nuclear holocaust." But when discussing the genocide of European Jews, it becomes a proper noun in my mind.

I don't think it needs to be special any more, it's never a proper noun. Armenian holocaust, Rwandan holocaust. You don't hear me whining about the highland clearances. Offended for people I never knew, & claiming inherited dispensations.

Another example is if I were discussing the moons of Jupiter I wouldn't capitalize "moon." But if I'm talking about earth's moon, I would write "the Moon."

Don't get it, it's a moon.

[Smellyoldgit]

Noodle wrote

Mmm, I guess you're right that no one owns anything fairly. I often think we're just animals fighting over territory.

dogpet wrote

Perfectly put.

"It's like two fleas arguing over who owns the dog"

Mick (Crocodile) Dundee, circa '86

[hertz vanrental]

Noodle wrote

But there are people who think we should just let everyone in and there are people who think we should ban all guns. They're a minority and those things aren't likely to happen, but those people do exist. I'm one of them depending on my mood, lol.

I was hoping people might respond in more detail?

A few years ago, we lived in Luxembourg. Most Thursdays, we would go to Belgium and have a few Trappist Monk beers. Then we'd go to Germany for a few lagers. We'd then pop into France to eat and finally pop back to Luxembourg for a nightcap. Four different countries, four different nationalities, four different customs, four different cuisines, four different languages. There were no Customs Posts to cross. Just drive from one country to another without let or hindrance as they say. No passport, no formalities. No problem. It was very odd. Even though there were no customs posts and people were free to travel as, when and how they liked, each area retained its distinct and very different culture.

We must confess that having lived there for a couple of years, we do miss driving a few miles to encounter a different culture, way of life and cuisine.

From our experience, a borderless world is the way to go. We were richer for the experience and I think others may be too.

[Noodle]

Ya know, the more I think about things and talk to people about them, the less sure I get about any of my opinions.

Do you think open borders would have any negative consequences? I think it would work well for countries that are similarly situated in terms of quality of life. But I think the influx from countries where people don't want to live would be difficult to deal with, at least initially. (Not because they're bad people, but because of housing needs, schools, employment, etc.) Maybe things would even out over time?

[hertz vanrental]

Noodle wrote

Ya know, the more I think about things and talk to people about them, the less sure I get about any of my opinions.

Do you think open borders would have any negative consequences? I think it would work well for countries that are similarly situated in terms of quality of life. But I think the influx from countries where people don't want to live would be difficult to deal with, at least initially. (Not because they're bad people, but because of housing needs, schools, employment, etc.) Maybe things would even out over time?

To cut a very long and complex story very short, if Man wishes to have a world without borders, it could be achieved. Not without problems, but it can be done. My belief is that Mankind will gain. It will come. It has to come but it will take a while longer yet.

Europe is marching towards a borderless entity. It was a concept proposed by the Romans 2,000 years ago. Finally, it's happening. Sadly, without the UK it seems.

[Hobotronic2037]

Noodle wrote

Ya know, the more I think about things and talk to people about them, the less sure I get about any of my opinions.

Do you think open borders would have any negative consequences? I think it would work well for countries that are similarly situated in terms of quality of life. But I think the influx from countries where people don't want to live would be difficult to deal with, at least initially. (Not because they're bad people, but because of housing needs, schools, employment, etc.) Maybe things would even out over time?

I believe that humans are territorial by nature and that ain’t changing. While borders and countries are arbitrary constructs subject to change or whatever, the human animal often locks its doors and puts up fences at property lines around its home to carve out its familial kingdom. The tribe, too, delineates territory and dies to defend it. As does the nation state.

This doesn’t really answer your question. It’s just a thought tangential to it I wanted to throw out there as grist for the mill. A lot of people who moralize borders in America live in gated communities. Or aspire to. People who live on the borders may have a different perspective about their property being violated. I don’t make value judgements over people who wish to protect their nation state borders or view sovereignty as a thing, even if it’s really not. We all do it to some degree as individuals. It’s just human.

[hertz vanrental]

Hobotronic2037 wrote

I believe that humans are territorial by nature and that ain’t changing. While borders and countries are arbitrary constructs subject to change or whatever, the human animal often locks its doors and puts up fences at property lines around its home to carve out its familial kingdom. The tribe, too, delineates territory and dies to defend it. As does the nation state.

This doesn’t really answer your question. It’s just a thought tangential to it I wanted to throw out there as grist for the mill. A lot of people who moralize borders in America live in gated communities. Or aspire to. People who live on the borders may have a different perspective about their property being violated. I don’t make value judgements over people who wish to protect their nation state borders or view sovereignty as a thing, even if it’s really not. We all do it to some degree as individuals. It’s just human.

Essentiallly, you're right of course, but things change and have always changed.

Until 10,000 years ago, there were few, if any, permanent homes or villages. Back in those days, Man had few possessions. He only had what he could carry. For 90% of his time on earth, Man has been a nomad. In that sense, sovereignty is a relatively new concept and what has been learned can be unlearned.

[Hobotronic2037]

hertz vanrental wrote

Essentiallly, you're right of course, but things change and have always changed.

Until 10,000 years ago, there were few, if any, permanent homes or villages. Back in those days, Man had few possessions. He only had what he could carry. For 90% of his time on earth, Man has been a nomad. In that sense, sovereignty is a relatively new concept and what has been learned can be unlearned.

Good counterpoints. I appreciate the debate.

Well I certainly don’t want to be a nomad with a 30 year lifespan. Rousseau’s Noble savage view is laughable on its face and thoroughly discredited. And I don’t want people invading my home. So maybe progress looks a lot like a strong lock on a door and a loaded glock on the mantle and even the necessary evil of arbitrary national borders secured by force. Yeah that’s a tragic view but I believe that humans are constrained by their nature and not perfectable in any real sense. There will always be selfish assholes who would deprive you of your life, liberty and property. That ain’t changing. Whether they are outside your borders or inside your government and religious institutions.

[Kinich Ahau]

UPDATE:

Sexpest66 is only 50kms from Washington DC. (he went to Washington State first)
The problem though is his bicycle has a couple of punctures and he is having to sell his arse along the highway for small change so he can buy a repair kit.

[hertz vanrental]

Kinich Ahau wrote

UPDATE:

Sexpest66 is only 50kms from Washington DC. (he went to Washington State first)
The problem though is his bicycle has a couple of punctures and he is having to sell his arse along the highway for small change so he can buy a repair kit.

KA. You are fuckin' priceless.

[hertz vanrental]

Hobotronic2037 wrote

Good counterpoints. I appreciate the debate.

Well I certainly don’t want to be a nomad with a 30 year lifespan. Rousseau’s Noble savage view is laughable on its face and thoroughly discredited. And I don’t want people invading my home. So maybe progress looks a lot like a strong lock on a door and a loaded glock on the mantle and even the necessary evil of arbitrary national borders secured by force. Yeah that’s a tragic view but I believe that humans are constrained by their nature and not perfectable in any real sense. There will always be selfish assholes who would deprive you of your life, liberty and property. That ain’t changing. Whether they are outside your borders or inside your government and religious institutions.

My partner and I worked in IT. In some sense, we still do.

When we were employees, we went from job to job and country to country. We followed demand. The average stay was 18 months. Just long enough to implement a new system. Post implementation, we were expected to quit. They didn't need us and we didn't want them because a new challenge awaited. In that sense, we were nomads. Our possessions amounted to a bank account and little else. In most senses of the word, we were nomads. For us, it seemed natural. Why stay in one place? The world is big. It's there to be explored and explore it we did.

We have been in our present house for less than two years and, already, we are in the initial stages of planning our next move.

We went to Paris in April. Next month, we're off to Greece. In December we are off to new York (KA: The city, NOT the state).

Nomads is what we are. Travelling is what we do. We are happy when we are travelling.

I spoke to Dad and Grandad at the weekend. They both said that the family was born with 'itchy feet'.

We like Europe. We can travel from country to country without this border crap. It feels natural and IS natural.

This border/country crap ain't the way. It ain't natural. AND, all this border crap and nuclear missiles and protect what's mine and import duties and trade wars and splitting up families and building walls and And AND isn't the way forward for Mankind. It ain't natural. It ain't working. It ain't natural. It can't work. It ain't natural. It won't work. It ain't fuckin' natural and what ain't natural rarely works.

[Hobotronic2037]

hertz vanrental wrote

My partner and I worked in IT. In some sense, we still do.

When we were employees, we went from job to job and country to country. We followed demand. The average stay was 18 months. Just long enough to implement a new system. Post implementation, we were expected to quit. They didn't need us and we didn't want them because a new challenge awaited. In that sense, we were nomads. Our possessions amounted to a bank account and little else. In most senses of the word, we were nomads. For us, it seemed natural. Why stay in one place? The world is big. It's there to be explored and explore it we did.

We have been in our present house for less than two years and, already, we are in the initial stages of planning our next move.

We went to Paris in April. Next month, we're off to Greece. In December we are off to new York (KA: The city, NOT the state).

Nomads is what we are. Travelling is what we do. We are happy when we are travelling.

I spoke to Dad and Grandad at the weekend. They both said that the family was born with 'itchy feet'.

We like Europe. We can travel from country to country without this border crap. It feels natural and IS natural.

This border/country crap ain't the way. It ain't natural. AND, all this border crap and nuclear missiles and protect what's mine and import duties and trade wars and splitting up families and building walls and And AND isn't the way forward for Mankind. It ain't natural. It ain't working. It ain't natural. It can't work. It ain't natural. It won't work. It ain't fuckin' natural and what ain't natural rarely works.

Very cool story and very cool life you have. I love it.

I’m in complete agreement on almost everything except the idea that it’s not human nature to build walls to fortify and protect against invaders. I mean anyone who locks their doors or secured their data with a password is exercising this instinct. Completely agree on protectionist trade. Free trade is obviously the only smart way to go and trade restrictions only end up hurting the country that imposes them. I loathe the idea of philosopher kings and central planners. All of that said, Your life sounds really fun and I’m a little jealous TBH. I hope that Europe stays safe for you and your partner with the recent influx of islamists. My hope is that Europe will be a “heat sink” to reform the radical jihadists among their number. Love the term “itchy feet.”

[hertz vanrental]

Hobotronic2037 wrote

Very cool story and very cool life you have. I love it.

I’m in complete agreement on almost everything except the idea that it’s not human nature to build walls to fortify and protect against invaders. I mean anyone who locks their doors or secured their data with a password is exercising this instinct. Completely agree on protectionist trade. Free trade is obviously the only smart way to go and trade restrictions only end up hurting the country that imposes them. I loathe the idea of philosopher kings and central planners. All of that said, Your life sounds really fun and I’m a little jealous TBH. I hope that Europe stays safe for you and your partner with the recent influx of islamists. My hope is that Europe will be a “heat sink” to reform the radical jihadists among their number. Love the term “itchy feet.”

My sincere apologies. Locking doors and protecting data with passwords isn't instinctive. It is a necessity, yes, but instinctive? no. If we really cared about our data, we would protect it with much stronger passwords than we do and we certainly wouldn't use the same password for every system that we use. Most people use a birthday or the name of their spouse or some such other guessable password. Then, they apply it to every system they use. Which is why a lot of people have their bank accounts trashed and their identity stolen. In the US alone, 9 million people have their identities stolen each year and that figure is rising.

If protecting our possessions really were instinctive, we'd fit much better locks to our houses and cars than we do. A large proportion of houses in the UK have double glazing. Most are fitted with locks. Hands up all those who lock their windows when they leave the house. Hands up all those who have lost their keys so that the locked windows can no longer be unlocked and the unlocked windows can no longer be locked. Hands up how many people leave their window keys in the locks?

As I say, there is no instinct about protecting our possessions. We do it out of necessity but mostly inadequately.

Just my opinion and could be wrong.

[Hobotronic2037]

hertz vanrental wrote

My sincere apologies. Locking doors and protecting data with passwords isn't instinctive. It is a necessity, yes, but instinctive? no. If we really cared about our data, we would protect it with much stronger passwords than we do and we certainly wouldn't use the same password for every system that we use. Most people use a birthday or the name of their spouse or some such other guessable password. Then, they apply it to every system they use. Which is why a lot of people have their bank accounts trashed and their identity stolen. In the US alone, 9 million people have their identities stolen each year and that figure is rising.

If protecting our possessions really were instinctive, we'd fit much better locks to our houses and cars than we do. A large proportion of houses in the UK have double glazing. Most are fitted with locks. Hands up all those who lock their windows when they leave the house. Hands up all those who have lost their keys so that the locked windows can no longer be unlocked and the unlocked windows can no longer be locked. Hands up how many people leave their window keys in the locks?

As I say, there is no instinct about protecting our possessions. We do it out of necessity but mostly inadequately.

Just my opinion and could be wrong.

I have long been fascinated with anthropology and in particular the concepts of evolutionary psych and human universals. Donald Brown has done some fascinating work on these subjects. I’m not saying it’s the gospel or anything but it rings true for me, personally. here’s a link to his human universal list that is still a work in progress.

https://condor.depaul.edu/mfiddler/h...humunivers.htm

The ones that stick out to me in this regard are the universals of territoriality, coalitions, collective identities, in-groups distinct from outgroups, etc.

My use of the word “instinct” may be imprecise. It’s more a shorthand part of my own mental models and internal monologue vis a vis these subjects than probably something I should use to frame my arguments and worldview to others. I’d rather revise it to just “normal genetic predisposition” or maybe “innate behavior predispositions” or perhaps just “human nature” with the word “normal” being used in a statistical context and not as a value judgement.

[Noodle]

I'm under the impression that EU citizens can travel around the EU as if it were borderless. That's no problem because the member states are similarly developed and modern. You're not going to have the citizens of Italy flood Germany because there are too many mopeds and everyone is late for everything.

Turkey, for example, is not a member of the EU, I think because there are membership requirements involving economics and human rights. Can Turkish citizens freely travel to and within the EU the way EU citizens can? If not, then the EU is only borderless within itself and is also "locking the door" to immigrants who are from less desirable places to live.

But is the fear of immigrants justified? Are they gonna come in our house and steal our stuff?