US Islamic in 20 years? Seems a little alarmist.

Smellyoldgit wrote

Sorry Wakkers - is it necessary to call a vote on this?
http://www.microkitten.com/images/c3...lian-thong.jpg

Well I suppose it's better than nothing.

see below post. This didn't post the first time I clicked submit.

Even though the guy is a theist, and therefore is biased, he still makes a valid point.

Thongs were banned on the public beaches in Paris for the 1st time. The reason is due to "disturbances of the public order". Who would be disturbed by this display other than the numerous and growing young Muslim population in Paris?

People in Europe are losing their secular rights by Islamist intimidation. In this case, people lose the right to sexual expression. Now so far, there are no real Sharia type laws in Europe, but secular ideas are definitely being threatened by Islamist intimidation.

[nkb]

genius2687 wrote

Even though the guy is Christian, and thus has his Theological biases, he still makes a valid point.

The freedom to dress sexually is being infringed upon by the Muslim youth who threaten to make "disturbances". That is wrong because it infringes upon secular rights and pluralism.

How is that different from Christians infringing on secular rights, because they think it goes against their God-given moral laws?

Personally, I think the chances of Sharia law taking over in Western countries (Europe, US, Canada, etc) are close to nil, mainly because the population is not uneducated and ignorant enough.

Christians definitely do infringe on secular rights.

Muslims just do it ALOT worse.

[Waddlie]

I find myself wondering "Is Genius2687 the most erroneously-named member of this forum?"

Answers on a postcard, please...

[nkb]

genius2687 wrote

Christians definitely do infringe on secular rights.

Muslims just do it ALOT worse.

Yet, you're having trouble giving us valid examples. Hmmmm.

Try going to any Islamic country and advocating atheism, pluralism, free speech, women's rights, and gay rights and see what happens to you. Try going to any Muslim part of Europe and do the same thing to see what they do.

What about when Muslims deconvert from Islam? The penalty for such an action is death according to the Hadiths. And it is routinely practiced in Islamic countries.

In the US, the Christians will just call you immoral for doing the same exact thing. Few will actually kill you over it (i.e. antiabortion terrorists, Christian Identity extremists etc). Few will kill apostates. They'll just say some stupid crap like "I pray for your soul.".

Here's an article from the London Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...nmuslims29.xml

In Britain, 40% of Muslims aged 16-24 would prefer to live under Sharia law. 36% believe that a Muslim who converts to another religion should be put to death.

Unless Britain considers making significant limitations on immigration from the Islamic world, you will have more Muslim radicals coming into that country and eventually become a majority population via birthrates.

hey! fuck' em both.

Just fuck islam harder.

[nkb]

genius2687 wrote

Try going to any Islamic country and advocating atheism, pluralism, free speech, women's rights, and gay rights and see what happens to you. Try going to any Muslim part of Europe and do the same thing to see what they do.

What about when Muslims deconvert from Islam? The penalty for such an action is death according to the Hadiths. And it is routinely practiced in Islamic countries.

In the US, the Christians will just call you immoral for doing the same exact thing. Few will actually kill you over it (i.e. antiabortion terrorists, Christian Identity extremists etc). Few will kill apostates. They'll just say some stupid crap like "I pray for your soul.".

Here's an article from the London Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...nmuslims29.xml

In Britain, 40% of Muslims aged 16-24 would prefer to live under Sharia law. 36% believe that a Muslim who converts to another religion should be put to death.

Unless Britain considers making significant limitations on immigration from the Islamic world, you will have more Muslim radicals coming into that country and eventually become a majority population via birthrates.

Can you make up your mind what you are arguing?

I won't argue with you that Islam is presently far more radical than Christianity, in general.

However, your point was that you were agreeing with the idea that Sharia law is starting to replace secular laws, in the West (specifically the US), which is simply not the case. You have proven that by not being able to come up with a single valid example.

What happens in Islamic countries is completely moot in this case.

Ok. Maybe Sharia in the West is still in it's beginning stages. There's no doubt in my mind however that we will see Sharia laws like mandatory veiling for women, flogging for drinking wine, amputation for stealing, or death sentences for apostasy in another 5-20 years in European countries.

Maybe not in all of Europe or all of an entire European country, but definitely in some heavily Muslim populated cities. Malmo Sweden has an Islamic population of 25% for example.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatc...ves/003131.php

Yeah, it's a website ruled by a Catholic, Robert Spencer. Definitely wrong on Jesus, but mostly right on Islam.

[nkb]

genius2687 wrote

Ok. Maybe Sharia in the West is still in it's beginning stages. There's no doubt in my mind however that we will see Sharia laws like mandatory veiling for women, flogging for drinking wine, amputation for stealing, or death sentences for apostasy in another 5-20 years in European countries.

Maybe not in all of Europe or all of an entire European country, but definitely in some heavily Muslim populated cities. Malmo Sweden has an Islamic population of 25% for example.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatc...ves/003131.php

Yeah, it's a website ruled by a Catholic, Robert Spencer. Definitely wrong on Jesus, but mostly right on Islam.

There is no doubt in my mind that you are talking out of your ass on this subject.

Based on your predictions about how easily European countries will switch to Sharia law, I am going to assume that your knowledge of Europe is basically non-existent.

How exactly would there be different laws for different parts of a country? Ethnic Swedish females in Malmo will be forced to wear veils? Malmo residents will not be allowed to drink, under punishment of flogging (if you've ever been to Scandinavia, you would realize how ridiculous that sounds)? The death sentence (for changing religion, no less) would be reinstated in one of the most liberal countries in the world?

You seem to be really hung up on this whole Islam-taking-over-world thing, as that seems to be the majority of your 20 or so posts. Do you think that you may be over-reacting?

genius2687 wrote

In Britain, 40% of Muslims aged 16-24 would prefer to live under Sharia law.

Which means a third of 40% of 2.8% of the population, which is 0.37% - hardly an overwhelming political force. Even if *every* Muslim wanted Sharia law, that's still only 2.8% of the population. The percentages are even lower in Scotland (where I live) - at the last census, 0.84% of the population stated they were Muslim against 28% who said the they had no religion (making not being religous bigger then Catholicism).

[godless]

nkb wrote

[You seem to be really hung up on this whole Islam-taking-over-world thing, as that seems to be the majority of your 20 or so posts. Do you think that you may be over-reacting?

Islam certainly desires to take over the world, It is promised in the Koran & preached by the Imams. Sam Harris states in Letter to A Christian nation that at current birth trends, France will be majority Muslim within 20 years, & that's not factoring in immigration.

Once such European nations are muslim majority there WILL be clerics who seek to introduce sharia laws.

Whilst the majority of muslims would probably not initially be in favour of this, they will be pressured by their religious leaders to conforming. Probably, hopefully this pressure will be unsuccessful, but it will be applied.

It is very definately something worth keeping an eye on. I don't think Genius is being over-paranoid. The muslimification of traditionally Christian or secular countries is a concern.

Besides it's not just about majority rule, but votes. In Australia, as our polticians meet to vote on stem cell research, Cardinal Pell, (the Pope's No.1 man here) has 'urged' Catholic MPs to vote against it.

Thus even a small number of theists in parliament can have a huge effect on law making, as they may represent the number required to kill or approve a new law.

godless wrote

Once such European nations are muslim majority there WILL be clerics who seek to introduce sharia laws.

Well. there's already two European nations with majority Muslim populations. Albania's population is 70% Muslim:

The CIA World Factbook wrote

Between 1990 and 1992 Albania ended 46 years of xenophobic Communist rule and established a multiparty democracy. The transition has proven challenging as successive governments have tried to deal with high unemployment, widespread corruption, a dilapidated physical infrastructure, powerful organized crime networks, and combative political opponents. Albania has made progress in its democratic development since first holding multiparty elections in 1991, but deficiencies remain. International observers judged elections to be largely free and fair since the restoration of political stability following the collapse of pyramid schemes in 1997. In the 2005 general elections, the Democratic Party and its allies won a decisive victory on pledges of reducing crime and corruption, promoting economic growth, and decreasing the size of government. The election, and particularly the orderly transition of power, was considered an important step forward. Although Albania's economy continues to grow, the country is still one of the poorest in Europe, hampered by a large informal economy and an inadequate energy and transportation infrastructure. Albania has played a largely helpful role in managing inter-ethnic tensions in southeastern Europe, and is continuing to work toward joining NATO and the EU. Albania, with troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, has been a strong supporter of the global war on terrorism.

...and Turkey is 99% Muslim:

Wikipedia wrote

Turkey is a democratic, secular, unitary, constitutional republic whose political system was established in 1923 under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, following the fall of the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of World War I. Since then, Turkey has become increasingly integrated with the West while continuing to foster relations with the Eastern world. It is a founding member of the United Nations, the Organization of the Islamic Conference, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, a member state of the Council of Europe since 1949, and of NATO since 1952. Since 2005, Turkey has been in accession negotiations with the European Union, having been an associate member since 1963. Turkey is also a member of the G20, which brings together the 20 largest economies of the world.

Now, neither of these are countries I'm desperate to emigrate to, but on the other hand they seem to have manged to avoid turning into theocracies despity their large Muslim populations.