Just Curious

[Sternwallow]

Smellyoldgit wrote

But isn’t this a feature of all passing retards? Anything requiring a degree of thoughtful analysis of their simple minded bullshit causes either a neuro-illogical meltdown, or activation of the very efficient sidestep/divert/ignore reflex?
We’ve had the first batch of stock responses – eternal, outside of time & space – I even think we touched on mysterious ways (though I admit to not paying too much attention to his crap) – but at least we haven’t had a heap of holey book quotes – yet!

The stasi will keep an eye on his wormology to make sure his slimey emissions don't spread too far and ruin the carpets.

I guess you are right. This one almost seemed to have an actual thought buried in the mental muck. The twinge of disappointment at there not being even one authentic thought may have hardened my otherwise atheistic and therefore naturally generous heart.

[West491]

Egor wrote

I’m not aware of it; I contemplate it. You are correct: There is no way for us to know about God as he exists outside of the physical universe until, that is, we come to the fruition of our consciousness, which is the consciousness of God. But I’d be very surprised if that’s actually possible for a human being to do while alive in the physical world.

Having said that, it’s not that hard to contemplate an eternal present moment as it existed before the universe began. I believe the reason we can do that is because we have the capability of developing a god-consciousness. I don’t think any other animal can contemplate that (Granted, I don’t know another animal can’t, but I doubt it.).

Can we agree that contemplating (imagining, thinking up) an idea doesn't make it true? Hopefully we can. Therefore it follows that the fact that you can imagine a god that exists outside of spacetime, and created this universe, doesn't make it true. It's pure speculation and useless in a discussion about facts, right?

Also, are you saying that you've found a way to know about things outside of spacetime? You know with this whole "developing a god-consciousness" bit. Please share with me how your brain, which is exactly the same as ours and situated in spacetime, can know about things outside of "spacetime" (granting you that there exists such a thing).

[nkb]

Egor wrote

I believe the reason we can do that is because we have the capability of developing a god-consciousness.

Talk about being overly ambitious. I suggest that you set some more realistic goals for yourself, and strive to get above the retarded-plankton level of consciousness first, before even contemplating the human level and above.

[Irreligious]

Egor wrote

Well, let's see here...apparently, I'm not Gordon; I'm not a First Baptist; therefore, I have no idea what Baptists are or are not preaching.

It's not apparent to me, especially when you put it like this.

Are you, or are you not, the poster who used to post as Gordon on this forum?

[Smellyoldgit]

With all his blather about concious this, concious that, soul, substance and a raft of other drivel - I'm wondering if the Egor fool is a fan of Deepcrack Chopra. He certainly seems simple, stupid & gullible enough to fall for all that pseudo science claptrap.

[Egor]

Sternwallow wrote

I am counting Eyegore's post here #35 and his failure to answer my serious questions in the "curious" thread as fulfillment of the ten non-responses limit. I call bullshit and recommend quarantine for this obnoxious and mentally deficient worm.

Maybe I just don’t feel like talking to you. If that gets me quarantined, well, so be it.

Demigod79 wrote

And how is that any different from imagining or guessing?

I admit my concept of God could be wrong. But when I consider God as monistic in nature, it ties up so many loose ends that it seems to me the right way to go. And besides, I’m not going to get into my spiritual life and the proofs I derive from that, because that would be pointless in an atheist forum.

There can be no cause and effect before the universe began; to even think of such a thing as "cause" before the beginning of the universe is gibberish. You are making the same mistake as every other theist who uses the cosmological argument, applying the laws of the universe before the universe existed.

Good point, and it even gets stickier when one does contemplate a God existing outside of time. What could have motivated God to create a universe? How could such a being, being the only thing that exists, move in that way? If we imagine a God that created the universe according to a willful design, how or why would he choose, say, hydrogen or thermodynamics, etc.

But here’s the advantage I have over the atheist. I can pray for the answer and God will give it to me. I once prayed for a unique argument for the existence of God, and he gave that to me. I once prayed for proof that consciousness does not come from the brain and he gave that to me. I can pray for the answers to the above as well.

And I suppose if I’m going to write a book intended to help agnostics believe, I better get started.

You're avoiding the question. The question was, why should God be exempt from the illogical nature of an infinite regress? Why is it the case that an infinite God makes sense while an infinite universe doesn't?

Because an infinite regression of causes is obviously not what we observe. Therefore we deduce (or is it infer?) that there is an uncaused cause of things.

You are basically making an exception of God, not applying the normal rules to him because he's a magical being that can avoid those rules.

It’s because an infinite regress of causes is impossible that we assume an uncaused cause. That’s not magical thinking. That’s reason. It could be wrong; there’s no fault in that. But it’s an attempt to reason and understand. With atheists, they simply do not attempt to understand. They just accept what is in front of them without question. They don’t ponder anything.

Then that's just an assumption. Basically, your position on this is pretty much summed up as "God exists without cause, but I don't know how", which is meaningless.

It’s not meaningless, because I’m not done searching for that answer.

Equating existence with God is called pantheism, which most theists don't believe since it ultimately leads to atheism.

Wow. You’re sharp. I mean that, seriously. That is one of paradoxes of a monistic God. It kind of implies atheism as well. If all there is is God, then there really isn’t a God, per se. There is simply what is. It also destroys individual identity, which is an effect of atheism. It also equates all things like rocks, fish, bacteria, and humans, again like atheism. It allows for Jesus to be God, but it also allows for my bottle of Gatorade to be God. It also means that my consciousness is an illusion—just like with atheism, because ultimately my consciousness is the consciousness of God, not of me as a separate entity from God. It also make prayer into nothing more than the only being that exists talking to itself.

I believe God is monistic, but I live like dualism is real. Interesting conundrum. Nevertheless, monism makes sense of everything I observe.

[Egor]

Michael wrote

So basically you seem to be saying that universe (and subsequently everything in the Universe) is God [1], and that we don't really exist beyond being a thought in god's head,[2] but god only exists inside the universe that he is thinking of[3]. For the same reason that I exist outside of my thoughts about food and sex. (Sure, I think of them, they are a part of me, but I exist outside of those thoughts), and since you have claimed that you believe nothing can exist outside of the universe[3], you imply that no god exists to "think" the universe into existance in the first place. And once again if he does, he has to exist somewhere. So where?

Think about it. There is no “where.” That’s just an illusion. God is God and a subset of God is the Universe. But that set that is God doesn’t exist anywhere, because “place” is relative.

If we are going to think about God (and I think this is where atheists have their biggest difficulty) we have to think more expansively than we do. Time, place, motion, inside the universe, outside the universe, all these things are illusory in nature. There is no time, there is no place, there is no motion, there is no distance. Those things are not real. Even the idea that you are other than everything is an illusion.

You then go on to say that whatever is thinking of this universe in a place that doesn't exist couldn't have come about without something causing it to exist [3, 4. 5]. I suppose you could get around this by saying that "god willed itself into existance before it even existed" [6 (oh yeah and see 7)], and would most likely then have a reason for why he/she/it did such, except God doesn't know why it exists [8], which would rule out itself as it's creator.

So we have a universe that doesn't actually exist [9], that is actually only a thought of a "god" that only exists inside it's own thoughts, but also exists enough to have internal thoughts in the first place, exists nowhere and had to be created, but didn't create itself, doesn't know why it was created but also can't have been created by something else because then we get infinite regress.

You're not making sense.

Well, let me try to stay on track a little better:

God is all there is, and apparently consciousness is an attribute of God because there is consciousness in all animals. God must have always been, because if God is all there is, nothing could have caused his existence to start. God can’t cause himself to start from nothing, that would be absurd. However, God must hold himself in existence, because there is no other force, law, dynamics, mechanism, whatever, that isn’t part of God. Therefore, God must have “existence” as one of his attributes.

But is that magical thinking? Have we (I) created a being to fill in all the gaps in my understanding? No. Because I have been led by my observations to no other possible conclusion. Magical thinking would be to say God popped into existence out of nothing.

If I were an atheist, I suppose I could say, “Forget all that. Get on with eating, drinking, mating, and avoiding pain. Because there’s nothing else.” But that to me is a soulless, undignified dodge. My mind won’t let me do that.

I appreciate the intelligent discussions we are having.

[Egor]

Irreligious wrote

It's not apparent to me, especially when you put it like this.

Are you, or are you not, the poster who used to post as Gordon on this forum?

No.

[Irreligious]

Egor wrote

Maybe I just don’t feel like talking to you. If that gets me quarantined, well, so be it.

Maybe we don't feel like listening to a Christian preacher preach on an atheist forum. If that gets you quarantined, well, so be it.

Egor wrote

I admit my concept of God could be wrong. But when I consider God as monistic in nature, it ties up so many loose ends that it seems to me the right way to go. And besides, I’m not going to get into my spiritual life and the proofs I derive from that, because that would be pointless in an atheist forum.

If you admit you don't know what the hell you're talking about and you don't really want to talk about it with us, anyway, why are you here instead of spreading your ignorance someplace where it might actually be appreciated?

Egor wrote

Good point, and it even gets stickier when one does contemplate a God existing outside of time. What could have motivated God to create a universe? How could such a being, being the only thing that exists, move in that way? If we imagine a God that created the universe according to a willful design, how or why would he choose, say, hydrogen or thermodynamics, etc.

Why are you asking Sterny? You're supposed to be the expert on what allegedly occurs outside of time and the alleged God thing that allegedly exists there.

Egor wrote

But here’s the advantage I have over the atheist. I can pray for the answer and God will give it to me. I once prayed for a unique argument for the existence of God, and he gave that to me. I once prayed for proof that consciousness does not come from the brain and he gave that to me. I can pray for the answers to the above as well.

So this God thing with which you claim to have communicated is male? Did it have a tenor, baritone or bass sounding voice? If there was no visage accompanying the alleged sounds emanating from this thing from which you claim to have heard, how do you know you weren't just hearing voices inside your head?

Egor wrote

And I suppose if I’m going to write a book intended to help agnostics believe, I better get started.

Is anybody here stopping you?

Egor wrote

Because an infinite regression of causes is obviously not what we observe. Therefore we deduce (or is it infer?) that there is an uncaused cause of things.

Deduce away, but you still don't actually know if you haven't actually discovered this alleged uncaused cause. You're just speculating about the unknowable.

Egor wrote

It’s because an infinite regress of causes is impossible that we assume an uncaused cause. That’s not magical thinking. That’s reason. It could be wrong; there’s no fault in that. But it’s an attempt to reason and understand. With atheists, they simply do not attempt to understand. They just accept what is in front of them without question. They don’t ponder anything.

No. They merely avoid pretending to know what they don't. And if they are scientifically literate, they conduct actual inquiry into the nature of existence. They don't blindly speculate and throw a tantrum when others don't believe their unfounded claims.

Claiming that the alleged uncaused creator of the universe communicated with you through something you call prayer, as you just did in your last post, is delusional or magical thinking. You know that didn't happen and we know that didn't happen.

Egor wrote

It’s not meaningless, because I’m not done searching for that answer.

Why not continue your, ahem, inquiry and get back to us when you've actually uncovered some evidence to support your assertions?

Egor wrote

Wow. You’re sharp. I mean that, seriously. That is one of paradoxes of a monistic God. It kind of implies atheism as well. If all there is is God, then there really isn’t a God, per se. There is simply what is. It also destroys individual identity, which is an effect of atheism. It also equates all things like rocks, fish, bacteria, and humans, again like atheism. It allows for Jesus to be God, but it also allows for my bottle of Gatorade to be God. It also means that my consciousness is an illusion—just like with atheism, because ultimately my consciousness is the consciousness of God, not of me as a separate entity from God. It also make prayer into nothing more than the only being that exists talking to itself.

Sounds like you're desperately searching for a meaning to your life. Attempting to force your beliefs onto unwilling others is one way to assume purpose, I suppose. But there are many other more productive pursuits you might want to consider.

Egor wrote

I believe God is monistic, but I live like dualism is real. Interesting conundrum. Nevertheless, monism makes sense of everything I observe.

And why is what you find comforting as a belief system supposed to be compelling to us?

[Kate]

Irreligious wrote

So this God thing with which you claim to have communicated is male? Did it have a tenor, baritone or bass sounding voice? If there was no visage accompanying the alleged sounds emanating from this thing from which you claim to have heard, how do you know you weren't just hearing voices inside your head?

It had a 'sultry' voice.

[Irreligious]

Kate wrote

It had a 'sultry' voice.

And a very poor fashion sense, apparently.

A cleavage-baring wingy white, strapless dress with scalloped hem, and white pantyhose with black-- black!-- strappy high heels! And after Labor Day, yet? Blasphemy!

I do not believe in fairies of this type.

[Kate]

It didn't shave, neither.

[Irreligious]

The Dolly Parton wig was a nice touch, though. It complements the cleavage.

[Kate]

And brings out the blue of its eyeshadow.

[Kate]

Hey, Eyegore, do you believe in swamp monsters? Cuz, like, if say a redneck and his drug addict friend want to resolve a child custody dispute by killing the mother and getting rid of her body in the swamp, they might be dismayed to learn that something in the swamp waits for them as well.
God's a lot like a lurking monster innit.