Ideas for getting evolution accepted in America - Page 3

Sternwallow · 12-06-2009, 12:01 AM

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Demigod79 wrote

One radical idea I had was to compare evolution to the free market. It seems to me that many Americans have this reverence for free-market capitalism (you never hear an American espousing the virtues of socialism/communism) and evolution happens to share many of the properties of the free market. The free market is lightly regulated and likewise evolution has no regulator (no god), it's driven by competition, with the stronger triumphing over the weaker, it allocates resources to their most productive uses (over time it adapts living things to their environment extremely well), and it's driven by individuals (genes) trying to maximize their own gain/survival. Most Americans understand how the free market works and most think it's a good thing. By analogy they should then be able to accept evolution as well. Maybe signs should be made connecting the two: "Evolution is nature's free market", "Evolution support the free market", "Support the free market, support evolution", etc. Does this idea kind of make sense or am I just completely crazy?

That is not too far fetched. We even talk about market niches similarly to ecological niches.

The free market is not just cut-throat competition; it also supports the formation of cooperative or symbiotic relationships. Examples include the way that production of all of the materials needed for buildings tend to prosper or languish together. So, too, in evolution, two very different lifeforms can adapt to each other and themselves prosper when their teammate does. An example of this is the depth of a flower's nectar well and the length of the hummingbird beak. Each depends on the well-being of the other so they evolve together.

ghoulslime · 12-06-2009, 12:08 AM

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Steel wrote

Is tenspace dead?

He is in Montana. It is the same as death. Actually, I was just thinking of him a few days ago. I hope he makes it through the winter.

Sternwallow · 12-06-2009, 12:12 AM

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Atavus wrote

... "god did it." Simple answer: Simple life.

"God did it" is an infinitely complex answer masquerading as a simple answer. Its true complexity is hidden from simpletons.

12-06-2009, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Sternwallow wrote

That is not too far fetched. We even talk about market niches similarly to ecological niches.

Quote:

Sternwallow wrote

The free market is not just cut-throat competition; it also supports the formation of cooperative or symbiotic relationships. Examples include the way that production of all of the materials needed for buildings tend to prosper or languish together. So, too, in evolution, two very different lifeforms can adapt to each other and themselves prosper when their teammate does. An example of this is the depth of a flower's nectar well and the length of the hummingbird beak. Each depends on the well-being of the other so they evolve together.

are you suggesting that evolution of the current religious principles and doctrines of those who believe in the major religions that are actively participating in the interference of education of evolution to the general population of The United States of America is possible due to the fact that you believe in free market existence and evolution?

Sternwallow · 12-06-2009, 12:49 AM

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none wrote

are you suggesting that evolution of the current religious principles and doctrines of those who believe in the major religions that are actively participating in the interference of education of evolution to the general population of The United States of America is possible due to the fact that you believe in free market existence and evolution?

? Difficulty parsing that. Is it supposed to be a sentence?

I am not at all sure this is what you meant, but nothing depends on what I believe about the free market, evolution or anything else.

I make it a practice not to have any beliefs (though the word may creep into my posts occasionally out of verbal habit).

12-06-2009, 01:09 AM

Quote:

none wrote

are you suggesting that evolution of the current religious principles and doctrines of those who believe in the major religions that are actively participating in the interference of education ABOUT evolution to the general population of The United States of America is possible due to the fact that you believe in free market existence and evolution?

no, I am suggesting that one species of capitalist will cease to exist through the eradication of current religous doctrine by mechanism of evolution.

Sternwallow · 12-06-2009, 02:04 AM

Quote:

none wrote

no, I am suggesting that one species of capitalist will cease to exist through the eradication of current religous doctrine by mechanism of evolution.

Religion is failing partly because it cannot evolve fast enough to stay ahead of its material (scientific) environment.

What form of capitalism, do you think, will cease to exist if religion goes away?

12-06-2009, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Sternwallow wrote

Religion is failing partly because it cannot evolve fast enough to stay ahead of its material (scientific) environment.

What form of capitalism, do you think, will cease to exist if religion goes away?

The only form of capitalism that would cease to exist is capitalism based upon religion.
if capitalism is equivalent to evolution is there an alternative to reilgious capitalsim?

Sternwallow · 12-06-2009, 12:05 PM

Quote:

none wrote

The only form of capitalism that would cease to exist is capitalism based upon religion.
if capitalism is equivalent to evolution is there an alternative to reilgious capitalsim?

Some of capitalism's obvious features are similar to evolution but there are very important differences. The various different styles of mousetrap, for example, did not inherit the characteristics of their predecessors in the previous production run, with variation. Traits are not passed on from generation to generation in the products of capitalism. On the other hand, non-evolutionary biological processes, like algae blooms are very similar to the way that oil production bloomed as the market for it grew.

Christianity, it seems to me, is not capitalistic; its dogma, tends to be very communal and selfless. This aspect of Christianity, I think, is most often abandoned by its adherents and so is the base of much Christian hypocrisy. A clear sign of this notion in action occurs when a Christian tells someone else how much they should donate to charity. The standard reply in such a situation is

for however many orifices the Xian is willing to admit to having.

12-06-2009, 01:00 PM

google result for christian church plus zipcode.
1,246 results
many orifices to fill here.

Demigod79 · 12-06-2009, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Sternwallow wrote

Christianity, it seems to me, is not capitalistic; its dogma, tends to be very communal and selfless. This aspect of Christianity, I think, is most often abandoned by its adherents and so is the base of much Christian hypocrisy. A clear sign of this notion in action occurs when a Christian tells someone else how much they should donate to charity. The standard reply in such a situation is

for however many orifices the Xian is willing to admit to having.

Sort of reminds me of Lloyd Blankfein of Goldman Sachs, that giant shadow bank sucking away billions of wealth from the productive economy into the useless gambling economy, saying that he was doing "God's work". Also reminds me of a book that described wealthy evangalical Christians being okay with capitalism because the bible says they are to "inherit the earth". As usual, religion can adapt itself to its environment and believers can take passages out of context to justify their lifestyle.

I'm proud of the fact that two of the most generous people on the face of the planet are two atheists/agnostics, Warren Buffett and Bill Gates. Coincidentally, they're both personal heroes of mine since I'm into both wealth management and computers.

On another note, America's unflinching dedication to the free market may actually be helping religion. Statistics show a very strong correlation between personal income levels and religiosity; Gallup poll shows that 59% of those making less than $20,000 take a creationist view while only 29% of those making more than $50,000 do. Extreme capitalism tends to create a big wealth gap, with the vast majority of the wealth going to a tiny percentage of the population. I'm thinking that reducing the wealth gap and raising the standards of the poorest might help reduce religious beliefs as well. Why turn to religion for solace when you have most or all of what you need in this world?