Justification of Morality

MajorTomWaits99 · 02-20-2011, 08:08 PM

SomanY People I discuss or argue religion with inevitably bring up the following:
God doesn't create morals I'll give you that but he Justifies it. I'm aware of the morals but why do I adhere to it?

Can someone explain this argument to me? I thought I was good for the enjoyable feeling I get when I Unselfishly help and the knowledge that I made a single person (and a bit of the entire human race)'s life slightly better.

West491 · 02-20-2011, 08:22 PM

Quote:

MajorTomWaits99 wrote

SomanY People I discuss or argue religion with inevitably bring up the following:
God doesn't create morals I'll give you that but he Justifies it. I'm aware of the morals but why do I adhere to it?

I don't understand what you're asking. What would be the purpose of a theist making this point?

MajorTomWaits99 · 02-20-2011, 08:26 PM

I don't know. How does one "Justify" Morality....

West491 · 02-20-2011, 08:30 PM

It's always been my understanding that theists believe that morals do come from god, this is where the term 'objective morality' comes from.

I've never heard any theist say 'Morals don't come from god'. I need more data from the conversation, maybe my misunderstanding comes from taking your language out of context.

MajorTomWaits99 · 02-20-2011, 09:49 PM

He essentially acknowledged that Morals could come from evolution. But that the origins of morals are irrelevant but they do not JUSTIFY Morals like God Does.

ILOVEJESUS · 02-21-2011, 03:52 AM

Eh? We have morals because if we didn't we wouldn't have much of a society. Morals are a way for the particular species to all get along together. They evolved as we did. God can't even agree with his own bibles/Quran's etc laws. Not sure how the old testament God would have taken to Jesus telling his followers to turn the other cheak. Maybe Gods morals evolved as the bible was written. In that case why is it hard to believe that our morals evolved and just dump the God being out of the equation?

MajorTomWaits99 · 02-21-2011, 09:01 AM

I really Don't KNow....maybe...we're just not "getting" it.

nkb · 02-21-2011, 09:57 AM

Well, this is essentially the Euthyphro Dilemma, isn't it?

I have to admit, I've never heard a theist argue that side of it.

Stargazer · 02-22-2011, 05:51 AM

Strangely, my experience with people who believe in God is that they will claim that without him there is no morality. They actually believe that there was no morality for anyone but followers of the Bible throughout history. They also believe consistently that atheists are without morals because they are without God.

West491 · 02-22-2011, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Stargazer wrote

Strangely, my experience with people who believe in God is that they will claim that without him there is no morality.

When they tell me this, I follow up as follows (redundant?):

Then with what moral compass were people acting upon previous to the establishment of Christianity and god's ten commandments? Do you think that they didn't possess the mental faculties to recognize the benefits of working together to collect resources as opposed to trying to kill each other, wasting time and energy? Do you think that they didn't understand that the repercussions of stealing may outweigh the benefits? Do you think that they didn't comprehend that being honest with each other could help build healthy relationships, which could benefit both parties in the long run?

Stargazer · 02-22-2011, 07:52 AM

Quote:

West491 wrote

When they tell me this, I follow up as follows (redundant?):

Then with what moral compass were people acting upon previous to the establishment of Christianity and god's ten commandments? Do you think that they didn't possess the mental faculties to recognize the benefits of working together to collect resources as opposed to trying to kill each other, wasting time and energy? Do you think that they didn't understand that the repercussions of stealing may outweigh the benefits? Do you think that they didn't comprehend that being honest with each other could help build healthy relationships, which could benefit both parties in the long run?

Bravo. It's what I was thinking but stated better.

MajorTomWaits99 · 02-22-2011, 07:53 AM

Yeah that's why the other ones say : Its always been there...BUT GOD JUSTIFIES IT... : \ Noone can answer this for me...not even the Theists

Stargazer · 02-23-2011, 06:05 AM

Quote:

MajorTomWaits99 wrote

Yeah that's why the other ones say : Its always been there...BUT GOD JUSTIFIES IT... : \ Noone can answer this for me...not even the Theists

I suppose one would then ask why it needs to be justified when it existed so long without.

Sternwallow · 02-24-2011, 06:43 AM

The common response I have gotten from Christians is that everyone has always behaved in a moral framework even before the Ten Commandments because "God wrote the moral code into our hearts". The non-Christian then is merely failing to give due credit to God for the morals we follow.

My first response to this is "Then why do we need the damned book if God is apparent through His work and if He branded all this stuff on the side of our cardiac muscle with a hot iron?"

Stargazer · 02-24-2011, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Sternwallow wrote

The common response I have gotten from Christians is that everyone has always behaved in a moral framework even before the Ten Commandments because "God wrote the moral code into our hearts". The non-Christian then is merely failing to give due credit to God for the morals we follow.

My first response to this is "Then why do we need the damned book if God is apparent through His work and if He branded all this stuff on the side of our cardiac muscle with a hot iron?"

It's not fair that God should get credit for everything that's good about us, yet we are left to shoulder the blame for everything bad. We humans developed morality with no outside help whatsoever and should get credit for our accomplishment.