Near Death Experiences: what's it all about?

I'm in conversation with a Christian at the moment. It started well, b ut it may not go on much longer! We've been quite polite to each other so far, but when I asked her what kind of Bible-believeing Christian she was (literal or metaphorical) she answered "Does it matter what I think? You'll just disagree with me anyway."

True, in my time at bibleforums I have disagreed with alsmot everybody who spoke to me. I can't help it if they all seemed to be wrong.

She also says that whenever anybody offers me any arguments I just shrug them off and move on. There may be some truth to that (although I remember plenty of instances where people said to me "You'll never understand unless you have faith", or "can't you see it? It's so clear!" without further comment.

Anyway. She asked me about NDE's, and I responded with some articles from the Secular Web on this. She said these were biased sources, and suggested that we use neither Christian nor atheist sources to refer to. I asked her if she knew any neutral sources and she offered me these.

http://www.iands.org/
http://mikepettigrew.com/afterlife/h...tch_study.html
http://mikepettigrew.com/afterlife/html/u_k__study.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_studies

So can anyone please tell me what they think about Near-Death experiences? Thanks!

PS - we also said:

Me: In my other email, my main point was that when you say "I believe there is a reason for all of this...we all go through too much in this life for this to be all there is..." it just seems to me like wishful thinking - not really proof of anything. What do you think? Would you agree that wishing something were true doesn't mean it has to be?

Her: Of course wishful thinking doesn't make it so...I wasn't talking about wishing though...that is why I was trying to provide you with evidence of life after death. You wishing there was nothing after death, also doesn't make it so...you have more of the burden of proof there is nothing after death then I do, actually.

Any thoughts on this? Thanks, all.

http://ravingatheist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3810

NDEs can happen any time the brain is traumatized or deprived of blood. It's just the brain playing tricks on you. Everything you experience needs to be processed internally regardless, so just because you have some strange experience doesn't mean that anything supernatural was involved.

Thanks! I'll have a look at that.,

[Victus]

Summary: When your brain is running on its last fumes of oxygen, it begins firing in a less ordered manner, specifically in the limbic system and primary visual cortex. This tends to cause visual hallucinations and a feeling of dissociation from the body, feelings of floating and the like. This can be replicated in the lab.

*shrugs*

We can seriously make this crap happen in a lab just by introducing shocks to the limbic system. There's nothing dualistic happening that I can see.

[Sternwallow]

I happen to wish there WAS something after death. I could use a vacation, but only one that I could enjoy. I do not expect to enjoy oblivion. My wish has not been granted, death is the end as far as any evidence suggests.

The idea that this personality which we sense in our selves can somehow continue without the physical mechanism which allows to to be in this world, seems absurd to me.

Much of what we hold as "us" is based in our cultural upbringing and our language. Without language, you can't think in a sophisicated way. It's been shown that if that education is taken away at an early age - children brought up by animals for example - the cultural and language skills are virtually impossible to learn. Our brains get fixed at a certain point. This shows our personality is very much a physical thing.

It's this need for a "purpose" to life a side-effect of being smart enough to make life easier for ourselves. Instead of having to fight for our survival the whole time, like other animals, we have plenty of time to consider what we're doing here.

The idea that this personality which we sense in our selves can somehow continue without the physical mechanism which allows to to be in this world, seems absurd to me.

It's not so absurd, if you think about it. The only reason we believe in a naturalistic mind is because anything else doesn't fit in with science, and science is da best. If you go by intuition, then you can't explain the feeling of being in terms of anything else. Your personality is not sensed like your hands or a brick, so it makes perfect sense (without science) to think of it as separate.

[Sternwallow]

FishFace wrote

It's not so absurd, if you think about it. The only reason we believe in a naturalistic mind is because anything else doesn't fit in with science, and science is da best. If you go by intuition, then you can't explain the feeling of being in terms of anything else. Your personality is not sensed like your hands or a brick, so it makes perfect sense (without science) to think of it as separate.

Yes, but a separate what?

Fuck knows, I didn't say there was a satisfactory explanation for any of this. Not yet.

[Sternwallow]

Not expecting a well-formed explanation of this issue, just what do you think this wholesale soul stuff might be?

I have not satisfactory answer. I am forced to believe, without any other evidence, in reductionism - that it is somehow a byproduct of our brain chemistry. This carries with it the possibility that any chemical reaction can create a personality, which is... weird.

FishFace wrote

I have not satisfactory answer. I am forced to believe, without any other evidence, in reductionism - that it is somehow a byproduct of our brain chemistry. This carries with it the possibility that any chemical reaction can create a personality, which is... weird.

Why?

I don't think it's at all weird. We're finding out new things about the brain all the time.

I'm not sure if I posted this before, but... when I first saw the movie Blade Runner back in the 80s, I felt sorry for the android woman when she discovers her memories (and therefore her personality) is not her own. It has been programmed. I thought this film was about the differences between us and AI.

Now, I realise it's about humanity discovering it has no soul. All our memories, behaviour and ways of thinking have been "programmed" into us - our instincts are pre-programmed and our culture comes as we grow up. Language has a massive effect on the way we think. Try to imagine what your personality would be like if you had no language. Our taste in food and our concept of beauty are given to us by the society we grow up in.

We're just like the android woman in that we are only now discovering we are very sophisticated machines.

(If this post sounds a bit angry, please nobody take it personally. I'm in the middle of an email dialogue that is taking it's toll a little)

What I think is this:

We know that our brains are our personalities. Everything we know about humans corresponds perfectly to the idea that we are intelligent animals. Is there a soul? the question is about as relevant as asking if there is an invisible connection between your elbow and a fried egg. There might be; we sure as hell can't prove that there isn't; but why would you think there is?

Why would we think there is a soul? I'll tell you why: because a long time ago we thought that the earth is flat, the sun is in orbit around us, your heart does your thinking and there was a thing called the soul which was your breath.

If, having today's scientific knowledge, but (somehow) none of our cultural knowledge, we were asked if a soul existed, we would say maybe, but why think that it does?

Now, as to Near-Death Experiences: yes, there are some funny things that happen to people's brains. So what? It proves nothing at all! but if you happened to already believe that a soul exists, you might see this flimsy, circumstantial evidence as conclusive.

[Sternwallow]

simonh wrote

Why?

I don't think it's at all weird. We're finding out new things about the brain all the time.

I'm not sure if I posted this before, but... when I first saw the movie Blade Runner back in the 80s, I felt sorry for the android woman when she discovers her memories (and therefore her personality) is not her own. It has been programmed. I thought this film was about the differences between us and AI.

Now, I realise it's about humanity discovering it has no soul. All our memories, behaviour and ways of thinking have been "programmed" into us - our instincts are pre-programmed and our culture comes as we grow up. Language has a massive effect on the way we think. Try to imagine what your personality would be like if you had no language. Our taste in food and our concept of beauty are given to us by the society we grow up in.

We're just like the android woman in that we are only now discovering we are very sophisticated machines.

Also Sean Young was hot.

All four of those websites that xian gave interested athiest are parapsychology bullshit. Why any university wastes money on funding parapsychology is beyond me. Its the only thing in the world more preposterous than regular religion.