My Mom's Faith

West491 · 10-31-2010, 08:59 AM

My (Fundamentalist Christian) mom sent me an email containing a bible verse talking about faith. Later, as a joke, I sent her this picture. I think she didn't get the joke in the picture, how disappointing.

:

This is how she replied:

"FAITH SUPERCEDES FACTS

FACTS are the point at which humans acknowledge that they are at their limit of understanding or doing all that they can do.

FAITH is the point at which humans UNDERSTAND that ALL of mankind is LIMITED as well as IMperfect (when you meet a perfect human, introduce them to me).

No matter how intelligent OR knowledgeable a person is, they ARENOT the ultimate or final answer---a human's intelligence/knowledge is only a small portion of Gods intelligence that HE chose to give them OR allowed them to obtain. (Ex: How come NASA have spent YEARS on the moon, but cant find what they are looking for??)

Wisdom respects intelligence/knowledge, but NEVER lets them puff him/her up---or allow them to get full of themselves because it UNDERSTANDS that the source of root of intelligence/knowledge comes from GOD. You can have knowledge and intelligence WITHOUT wisdom.

One who has Wisdom remains humble and understands that ALL of mankind is LIMITED.

Wisdom will take you places that knowledge & intelligence cant, because God knows you can handle it. THAT is why Prov 7:4 (one of mom's favorite scriptures) says call wisdom your sister, and understanding your friend . You WANT to be close to both, but related to WISDOM!! Glory 2 God!

When you are "wise enough" to grasp hold of this understanding,FAITH is then the end of what man can do, but the point at which GOD can intervene and inject HIS omnipotent ability into whatever matter you place B4 him.

ANYONE who is IGNORANT enough to believe that any human being possess within them all it takes to successfully be ALL that they can be is ignorant due to their own haughtiness. They are FULL of negative pride, thinking more highly of themselves than they ought.

Romans 12:3 warns us not to think of ourselves like this, BUT to thinksoberly. When you think like that you are NOT thinking soberly, or rationally. You are "thinking" more like a drunk--one who is drunk on himself.

When you have FAITH, and you walk in obedience to God, the blessings that God has for you is more than you have ever asked for, thought of or imagined, and he will manifest these blessings to you, in HIS TIMING."

So, this is how I replied, rather simply actually.

"You talk about having faith as if it is a good thing. Having "faith" is not an advantage, in fact, it is harmful. You want to prove that having faith is beneficial? I dare you to name one positive thing that a person of Christian faith can do that a person of no faith or a completely different faith can not do."

How do you guys think I did?

Irreligious · 10-31-2010, 01:28 PM

Quote:

West491 wrote

How do you guys think I did?

Depends.

What goal are you trying to achieve?

West491 · 10-31-2010, 01:39 PM

I want her to understand why I'm atheist. If she doesn't want to let go of her beliefs, fine. Ideally, I just want her to understand that my position is, in fact, justified.

Irreligious · 10-31-2010, 02:09 PM

Quote:

West491 wrote

I want her to understand why I'm atheist. If she doesn't want to let go of her beliefs, fine. Ideally, I just want her to understand that my position is, in fact, justified.

From all that I have learned here in four years, that is very unlikely to happen. If your mom truly understood your position, then her faith would become untenable. Why would she give up the most important thing in her life-- her faith-- just so you can have the satisfaction of being understood by her?

West491 · 10-31-2010, 02:29 PM

You make a very good point. If she truly understood why I'm atheist, she would be too, or agnostic at least.

Sternwallow · 10-31-2010, 02:44 PM

Wait, what has NASA been looking for but not finding?

Last time I checked, NASA was trying to find out facts about space, space travel, interplanetary travel and many different individual experiments. Have they found nothing?

Sternwallow · 10-31-2010, 03:00 PM

Quote:

West491 wrote

"You talk about having faith as if it is a good thing. Having "faith" is not an advantage, in fact, it is harmful. You want to prove that having faith is beneficial? I dare you to name one positive thing that a person of Christian faith can do that a person of no faith or a completely different faith can not do."

How do you guys think I did?

It was a good paraphrase of Christopher Hitchens but you left off the corollary point. The second part, using your phrasing might be: "Name a dreadful thing that a believer would do because of their faith that an unbeliever would not do."

The first is difficult for the faithful to come up with and the second is answered almost before its premise is completely stated. The Hitchens favorite example is infant genital mutilation (circumcision).

All religions have commands and practices that are outrageous in any context other than being done for the faith. This is what has made faith so dangerous and destructive to civilization and humanity.

There is no act so hideous, so gut-wrenchingly horrible that people will not do it gladly if they think it is the will of their god.

West491 · 10-31-2010, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Sternwallow wrote

Wait, what has NASA been looking for but not finding?

Last time I checked, NASA was trying to find out facts about space, space travel, interplanetary travel and many different individual experiments. Have they found nothing?

I truly believe that she has no clue what she is talking about. About a year ago, NASA found a considerable amount of water on the moon (24 gallons, Google). She doesn't even keep up with the sciences so why she would comment on them, I have no clue.

Quote:

Sternwallow wrote

It was a good paraphrase of Christopher Hitchens but you left off the corollary point. The second part, using your phrasing might be: "Name a dreadful thing that a believer would do because of their faith that an unbeliever would not do."

The first is difficult for the faithful to come up with and the second is answered almost before its premise is completely stated. The Hitchens favorite example is infant genital mutilation (circumcision).

All religions have commands and practices that are outrageous in any context other than being done for the faith. This is what has made faith so dangerous and destructive to civilization and humanity.

There is no act so hideous, so gut-wrenchingly horrible that people will not do it gladly if they think it is the will of their god.

Ahh! Hitchens said that? I must be on to something

I'm a bit confused. Are you suggesting that I should tell her to "Name a dreadful thing that a believer would do because of their faith that an unbeliever would not do." ?

Jimble · 10-31-2010, 05:37 PM

West 491, Hitchens has an argument he has voiced plenty of times that goes something like "i'd like you to name an action a theist can take or a moral judgement they can make that is good and an unbeliever cannot make." and his second point is "now think of an amoral action that would only be performed by a religious person, but not by an unbeliever"

West491 · 10-31-2010, 06:11 PM

Thanks Jimble. I'll try to find the vid so I can hear it for myself.

UPDATE, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqFwree7Kak

Sternwallow · 10-31-2010, 10:31 PM

Quote:

West491 wrote

I truly believe that she has no clue what she is talking about. About a year ago, NASA found a considerable amount of water on the moon (24 gallons, Google). She doesn't even keep up with the sciences so why she would comment on them, I have no clue.

Ahh! Hitchens said that? I must be on to something

I'm a bit confused. Are you suggesting that I should tell her to "Name a dreadful thing that a believer would do because of their faith that an unbeliever would not do." ?

No. Per Hitchens, I would point out to her how very easy it is to think of things which believers do because of their faith, that non-believers would not do.

Edit: I see you have found one of the many times he has said that.

West491 · 11-01-2010, 04:48 AM

Yes, that's quite the reversal of the theists' moral argument. I smiled when I heard him say it. It's brilliant.

Any of you guys heard of the James Randi Educational Foundation and their 1 million dollar prize? It's interesting.

Jimble · 11-01-2010, 05:05 AM

Yeah of course, Randi is a skeptic legend! Love him. He has said 60% of the people who apply for the prize are dowsers. Since this seems to rely on the idiomotor effect, where you make small movements but arent aware they come from your muscles, I wouldn't be suprised if a lot of religious healers and the like are genuine fakes. charlatans, not honest fools.
I mean, the dowser has the alien movements of the rod to believe. Convincing if you aren't familiar with how it works.
But the faith healers and mediums and psychics in this world know where their material comes from, they have to think it up.

West491 · 11-01-2010, 06:18 AM

Yeah, that's pretty badass. This is a blatant challenge to faith healers. Randi has literally put his money where his mouth is (well actually there have been donations to this cause too, Randi initially put up $1000) A million dollars would be very useful to a church. I will tell my mom to pass this along to her bishop.

West491 · 11-01-2010, 08:39 AM

Ok, I'm looking at Randi on Youtube, he IS a badass. For some reason, I pictured him as 30-year old white male. When I saw him on Youtube, I received the surprise of my life. This videos are priceless by the way. Why have I never heard of this guy!?