A Tale of Two Cities: Ash Wednesday - a Southerner in New York

Lily wrote

Patronizing you? Not at all!

Lily, don’t be disingenuous, you know you were patronizing me.

So, what happened to our deal, Lily? I thought you were going to *try*. Am I operating under a misapprehension?

Maybe you need to read my message again, I seek to understand the people who subscribe to this - I thought I was clear.
Sorry, I am not clear. Do you mean to this blog?

Are you dense? If you had any sense of context, you’d know that I was seeking to identify, to understand, to learn from someone that has beliefs – to enlighten myself. I thought you’d do me that favor… I thought you’d at least give an honest try and we’d both benefit from the exchange.

It won't per se. But I was trying to think of ways far more promising than this forum for you to interact with all sorts of people, many of whom will be Christians of various stripes, in a positive environment where you would get to know them, see what drives them and maybe find some who would be open to talking about the issues you are interested in in more depth.

Yeah, that’s it Lily. That’s my problem…. I just haven’t been around enough Christians.

But, I've convinced myself that their must be more to it than that. There must be more to your faith than human frailty, right??
Yes, indeed!

Yeah? Well – HOW? Let me tell you…. From the outside looking in, it *is not* obvious.

I assure you, it does not (take a lot of effort). On some level, I think you know that already, since you know of one scientifically minded devout person and there are millions more.

What is your problem? I am *precisely* saying that it *appears* to take a lot of effort.

I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. Am I giving you too much credit?

Science and religion do not appear to mix. Christianity has a well documented track record of being the enemy of knowledge… from it’s development in the 5th century straight on through today.

It is NOT intuitive as to how someone can be scientifically minded and religious – which is precisely why I made the observation about Jimmy Carter.

What… did you think I was being coy? “On some level I think you know” – sheesh!!! I sincerely try to understand… but, I can’t *imagine* how people do it.

It’s like – how could someone believe that Santa Clause makes his rounds to the entire world in one night, then go out the next day and design the SR-71?

Again, I’m trying to give Christians the benefit of the doubt here, because logic suggests that as a person learns more about the properties of the physical world, that person has to make certain compromises with either his/her faith or his/her intellect.

It follows that depending on how a person decides to treat new information, that person must eventually bargain away all vestiges of faith; or, shut down and choose belief over facts.

A perfect example is “Intelligent Design”. How can a reasonably informed Christian get Creation and Evolution to coexist, he/she modifies both fact *and* faith to form a composite belief - which isn’t true to either fact or faith.

At least YEC’s can say they haven’t compromised.

I am not sure what evidence you are talking about here. When the books of the New Testament were written? Who wrote them? How the canon was formed? Any of these is an interesting subject, among many others we could address.

I don’t get it – you even mentioned Mithras earlier. And, you said you had an education, didn’t you? My bad – I assumed you knew about stuff outside the Bible and thought you might shed some light on how you regard it.

I am not sure how to reply to this. Mary's "virgin birth" is not a Christian doctrine. What other myths do you have in mind? I am no Mary expert and will take your word for it that there are other myths out there.

C’mon – you know…. It’s among the stuff in the more recently found gospels excluded from the NT (Dead sea scrolls, Gnostics, and all that jazz).

You know what forget that last part… just tell me:
What is your position on all the stuff that was left out of the Bible when Constantine’s team of editors put the Bible together?

Is the whole story about Constantine pure bunk? How do you fit the pieces together? (Please note – at least I’m still trying, whilst it appears you’ve retreated to some sort of selective deafness)

(from a different post)
If free will means anything, then God cannot interfere with our use of it. If nothing else, our reaction to evil tells us, or should, something about ourselves and the world we live in. If this world, this life is all we have, and there is no ultimate purpose…

How did you arrive at the conclusion that, if this life is all we have then there is no ultimate purpose? I mean, I understand you’re not saying that this world and life is all we have – but… you are saying that *IF* this life is all we have *THEN* there is no ultimate purpose, right?

Just so you know, the following collection of words:

then what is the problem? Evil is the way things are and we had just better suck it up. But we can't, can we? The question is: why not?

While I’m sure it sounded great in your head… and maybe you’re just tired…. Doesn’t make any sense.

Do you want to try that again?

I have read here many times that atheists don't need a God to have morals. I do not find any of the reasoning persuasive.

Would you agree that, despite any lack of persuasion, there are loads of people living moral lives without God?

We have seen too many times, just in our own century, that it is not morality that fills a vacuum but power. And power is not maintained by adherence to the 10 commandments or any other moral code we have had offered to us.

I agree with you there, but I don’t know if you’re trying to make some larger point. If so, would you elaborate?

Let me just ask you one more thing. Can you try… try to imagine – I’m not saying agree – but just imagine how people outside your faith just might think it’s all a little strange?

CoA: I am now very tired and not feeling very friendly toward this diatribe. I answered you as well as I could. You have now called me an asshole, accused me of patronizing you, though that is in your head... whatelse? Now I have to intuit the answers you want and if you don't get them then there is something wrong with me. Your prose is not as clear as you think but I think I get it now.

It will not repay me to enter into any further discussion with you. Yes, the story about Constantine, to which you are alluding is pure bunk. I have even written here in some comment recently about that. There is no point to even trying to discuss that. Anyone who could believe it is beyond all but supernatural help.

Mary is not mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Gnostic gospels are not New Testament books but books produced by the Gnostics, a heretical sect. etc.

I really resent spending time trying to answer questions honestly only to find out that they weren't honestly put.

[Tenspace]

Lily wrote

:lol: I actually thought, for just a moment, that you might have something I could sink me teeth into. When will I ever learn??

Can you possibly believe that there is a single one of us who doesn't know that Christ is a title?

Oh, probably about a hundred million American Christians. You know, the majority.

[Tenspace]

Choobus wrote

I have noticed that christianms often pretend that they don't realize that something was intended as a joke so they can attack it. It must be one of the tricks they have to learn to counteract the blatant fact that none of their arguments can stand up to any kind of logical scrutiny.

Lily,.fuck off you scabby troutface. It''s bad enough that you are allowed to contaminate the front page with your insane gibberish. We don't need it here as well. Now, if you would like to talk about renouncing Christ and becoming a stripper in a west vagina mining town, that's a story we can all enjoy.

Aw, c'mon Choob. I invited Lily here when I saw how steadfast she was in her arguments on the front page. I didn't think she'd walk in full of derision, saying things like " But since you all tell each other how much more intelligent and logical you are, than we, I don't blame you for your thesis."

She's obviously well-educated, articulate, and unlike Lucy Muff, able to hold a conversation above the level of basic namecalling.

Let's see if she can hold a candle to the to the neuroscientists, physicists, theologians, computer scientists and the like. Right now, all I know about online Christians came from Carico, Salty, and Jiminy; maybe she can enlighten me.

[Tenspace]

scathach wrote

I wanted to say, hey, you got a little sumpin, right on your forehead there, you may want to wipe.

Or, do what I did. This was when I was a devout Jew, an honest mistake.

One of my employees came in after lunch with the ashes on her forehead. I truly thought it was a little mess from lunch, so I sort of snuck up on her with a damp paper towel and wiped it off while saying, "Ya got a little something on your forehead."

She ran away screaming. If this was today's litiguous society, she probably would have sued me.

C'mon, Lily - Don't give up on my now!

Lily wrote

CoA: I am now very tired and not feeling very friendly toward this diatribe. I answered you as well as I could. You have now called me an asshole, accused me of patronizing you, though that is in your head... whatelse? Now I have to intuit the answers you want and if you don't get them then there is something wrong with me. Your prose is not as clear as you think but I think I get it now.

It will not repay me to enter into any further discussion with you. Yes, the story about Constantine, to which you are alluding is pure bunk. I have even written here in some comment recently about that. There is no point to even trying to discuss that. Anyone who could believe it is beyond all but supernatural help.

Mary is not mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Gnostic gospels are not New Testament books but books produced by the Gnostics, a heretical sect. etc.

I really resent spending time trying to answer questions honestly only to find out that they weren't honestly put.

I accept that you think I'm not being honest in my questions - I regret that my delivery made you feel that way.

All I can do plead that despite how I sound... I *am* being sincere. I exclaim - desperately sincere! I hope my unguarded proclamation will assuage your frustration with me, at least to the extent that you can accept that we *must* be misunderstanding each other.

I'd rather admit that I'm a bad writer than let you carry on the impression that my questions, "weren't honestly put." It's shitty of me and counter-productive to insult you... and, I readily admit that my retreat to insult was all too easy, and all too rapid. I respectfully offer my sincerest apology.

I also accept that you weren't trying to patronize me. For me, however, this is a gesture of my faith in you. All I ask is that you review the what you wrote (the part I interpreted as patronizing) and see if you can try to imagine why I thought you were marginalizing me.

Lily wrote

I can certainly point you to some books, essays, etc. that I have found helpful. But real life is always the best teacher. Do you have no friends who are active Christians? You would probably understand us better by helping out at Habitat for Humanity, volunteering at a soup kitchen ministry, etc. Sometimes just working along side of someone speaks volumes.

Can you imagine how that might suggest to me, "You need to read some more and be around Christians... because you haven't tried hard enough"?

Also, it seems to me that you ignored me when I wrote that I have tried to talk to Christians before as I have... 'been down that road'... and I also implied that I have hurt people I care about by questioning their faith. Then, I wrote that I have decided I value my relationships with the Christians in my life too much to risk hurting anyone else. Doesn't that alone suggest to you that must have a lot of contact with Christians ?

I will try my best to answer the questions you have. But comboxes are not the best place for real discussions.

I resubmit for your appraisal that these discussion groups are, for better or worse, the only place open discourse can occur without the formidable personal toll that often occurs in the non-virtual world.

Lastly - I leave all the other issues on the table as secondary. Because, what I have learned from this, if we accept each other at face value, is:

You and I - we two - despite sincerity of heart, managed to completely misunderstand each other in nearly every possible way that matters. Would it that it give us both pause.

Shouldn't we have both tried harder?

[Kate]

Tenspace wrote

I didn't think she'd walk in full of derision, saying things like " But since you all tell each other how much more intelligent and logical you are, than we, I don't blame you for your thesis."

Asleep at the wheel, Ten?

Oh good grief. I can't possibly refuse a generous follow up like that, COA. But it will have to wait. I am desperately tired (I have been up for most of the last 72 hours coughing from bronchitis and I am *cranky*). When I try next, why don't I try laying out some of the things that really puzzle me here. Maybe if we understand each others' premises better, we will be better able to avoid unnecessary misunderstandings. Some will be unavoidable. We come from very different places.

Yes! Great... it's a deal.

[calpurnpiso]

Lily wrote

Calpurnpiso! I am aware of your revision of my beloved classical history but I ain't buying it. I won't say I haven't enjoyed it, but I ain't buying it.

The reason is because you know NOTHING about the history of the Roman empire, the Life of Caesar his writtings, the writtings of Virgil, Appianus, Pollio, Suetonius, Seneca, etc. You know nothing about the Egyptian religion, Roman religion, Greek philosophers, Egypt under the Ptolomys. You know nothing about the vastness of the Roman empire which INCLUDED the WHOLE Mediterraeum sea who the Romans called MAre Nostrum ( our sea). You know NOTHING about the assasination of Caesar, his funeral, his status as a GOD, his temples and the cult that followed. You know NOTHING about the life of Herod the great ( A LOVER of ALL thing Roman) and his family. You know NOTHING about the Roman army VETERANS who settle ALL OVER the Empire. You know NOTHING about THEIR religion. You know NOTHING about latin and Greek structures and the languages SPOKEN in the VAST Roman Empire.....so, it is of no surprise you do not buy it.

How could you buy something you know NOTHING about?

Isn't it wise to get INFORMED and connect all of the dots to arrive at the truth? Remember I can back up my statements with evidence.......:)

Tenspace wrote

I didn't think she'd walk in full of derision, saying things like " But since you all tell each other how much more intelligent and logical you are, than we, I don't blame you for your thesis."

Now this is really an example of what I mean, when I talk about coming from different places. You consider that derision? How is that possible? You all say it all the time, literally. Not a day goes by without some subset of you congratulating one another for your logic and rationality; no godidiots here. (except for me and a couple of others). My personal favorite was the poor soul who wrote that we were mentally ill even if we were MDs, PhDs, etc.

At most, I expected you to take my statement as somewhat snarky but, at the same time, recognize it as truthful. I have been listening to you for some time now and don't agree with that assessment. For however long I stick around, I will not mince words. When you are offensive, I will say so. When you are wrong, I will tell you so. If I am, I will admit it. If I don't know, I won't pretend that I do.

That's the best I can do.

calpurnpiso wrote

The reason is because you know NOTHING about the history of the Roman empire, the Life of Caesar his writtings, the writtings of Virgil, Appianus, Pollio, Suetonius, Seneca, etc. You know nothing about the Egyptian religion, Roman religion, Greek philosophers, Egypt under the Ptolomys. You know nothing about the vastness of the Roman empire which INCLUDED the WHOLE Mediterraeum sea who the Romans called MAre Nostrum ( our sea). You know NOTHING about the assasination of Caesar, his funeral, his status as a GOD, his temples and the cult that followed. You know NOTHING about the life of Herod the great ( A LOVER of ALL thing Roman) and his family. You know NOTHING about the Roman army VETERANS who settle ALL OVER the Empire. You know NOTHING about THEIR religion. You know NOTHING about latin and Greek structures and the languages SPOKEN in the VAST Roman Empire.....so, it is of no surprise you do not buy it.

Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.

Uh--Undergraduate Classics major, here. I actually have read most of that stuff. In Latin, some of it (Caesar, Virgil, Suetonius, Cato and Catullus, maybe a few others, as well). If I could have conquered Greek I would have done my graduate work in Classics, too. Alas, Caesar's loss was King Arthur's gain... But heck, it is all glorious Liberal Arts!

[Tenspace]

Lily wrote

Now this is really an example of what I mean, when I talk about coming from different places. You consider that derision? How is that possible? You all say it all the time, literally. Not a day goes by without some subset of you congratulating one another for your logic and rationality; no godidiots here. (except for me and a couple of others). My personal favorite was the poor soul who wrote that we were mentally ill even if we were MDs, PhDs, etc.

At most, I expected you to take my statement as somewhat snarky but, at the same time, recognize it as truthful. I have been listening to you for some time now and don't agree with that assessment. For however long I stick around, I will not mince words. When you are offensive, I will say so. When you are wrong, I will tell you so. If I am, I will admit it. If I don't know, I won't pretend that I do.

That's the best I can do.

Fair enough.

[calpurnpiso]

Lily wrote

Now this is really an example of what I mean, when I talk about coming from different places. You consider that derision? How is that possible? You all say it all the time, literally. Not a day goes by without some subset of you congratulating one another for your logic and rationality; no godidiots here. (except for me and a couple of others). My personal favorite was the poor soul who wrote that we were mentally ill even if we were MDs, PhDs, etc.

At most, I expected you to take my statement as somewhat snarky but, at the same time, recognize it as truthful. I have been listening to you for some time now and don't agree with that assessment. For however long I stick around, I will not mince words. When you are offensive, I will say so. When you are wrong, I will tell you so. If I am, I will admit it. If I don't know, I won't pretend that I do.

That's the best I can do.

Tell me. What do you call a person that accepts absurd DELUSIONAL fairy tales as if they were REALITY and abides by its irrational teachings?

Do you know the symptoms of schizophrenia, TLE, dementiae and schizoaffective disorder?

Do you know the symptoms produced by ingesting psychoactive substances ( i,e peyotl, amanita, salvia, peganum harmala, mandrake, ayahuasca etc)?

Have you read Augustinus of hippo Confessions or City of God?. HAve you read the life of Martin Luther?..that of Aquinas and his Summa theologica...the life and "piety" of hildegard of Bingen...the life and times of muhammed and his visions at the cave of Hyra?

Have you read the Egyptian Book of the Dead? Are you familiar with the Hajj?

Would it be an insult if you tell a friend that is loosing weight and his always sick to get tested for HIV? If a friend constanly tells you that you must leave your TV on at night because the aliens that have implanted devices in his brain to monitor his thoughts can give you intelligence and health if you do it...would you view it as an insult if you suggest he sees a neurologist ?
:cool:

And to imagine, all of this hubub came from a little innocent comment about the ashes of aborted fetuses.