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Old 03-14-2006, 06:33 PM   #31
Mosslem_Atheist
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Well, I think it depends on two things:

1. How you define atheism

If you consider an infant or a mentally retarded person an atheist by default, then the answer is Yes.

2. How did that atheist become one

If you grew up to atheist parents or parents who do not practice any religion, you are an atheist by birth. Just like I was born a Moslem, although I didn't contemplate evolution or question my beliefs until I was in my late 20s, but believed and practiced Islam. Hence, the answer is Yes.

And, still, you can be an atheist without really knowing much about evolution. Evolution is not the only evidence against God, you know. Good old common sense is more than enough.

So, I say YEEEEES!

Peace.
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Old 03-15-2006, 10:20 AM   #32
baconeatingatheistjew
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MA, I define atheism as someone who has made a choice not to believe in god, and who sincerely believes there is no god, or anything supernatural that has ever come out of hiding since before the beginning of time.

2. If asked before you were in your 20's if god existed you would say yes, or I don't know...you wouldn't say no, so you were not an atheist. You became an atheist when you decided there is no god.

Evolution is not evidence against god(50% of scientists are believe in theistic evolution), but not believing in evolution means you must believe in god or the supernatural, or how would you explain how man started on this planet?

One more question. I'm an Atheist Jew. To be a Jew you either convert or you have a Jewish mother. It is my understanding, that one is not born a Muslim. Am I wrong about this? In other words, Christians, are not born Christian either, when they become Atheists, they are no longer defined as a Christian Atheist.

I believe Druze, are born Druze though, so you can be an Atheist Druze.

I know it is just a label, but I'm curious.
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Old 03-15-2006, 02:29 PM   #33
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Quote:
baconeatingatheistjew wrote
]I define atheism as someone who has made a choice not to believe in god ...
I have a niggling semantic point to make here. Choice? I don't feel as though I chose to evacuate the theo-beliefs I was indoctrinated with, nor do I now 'choose' to be an atheist. It's not an option from a suite of possible choices, but a realization, a conclusion, my state of awareness, all derived from my experience and education (and perhaps genetic makeup). I think if it were a 'choice,' I could just as easily choose to believe in Gawd any time. It's not that I won't -- it's that I can't.

Sorry to butt in, but I find this is a point many theists fail to grasp.

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Old 03-15-2006, 03:48 PM   #34
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It really is a choice. You or I could choose to believe tomorrow. We won't most likely. But yes, realization would be a better term. But even when we say we have no choice, there are alternatives. Just like the Church of Reality. Their motto is Choose Reality.

http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/welcome_home/
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Old 03-15-2006, 03:52 PM   #35
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Quote:
baconeatingatheistjew wrote
If asked before you were in your 20's if god existed you would say yes, or I don't know...you wouldn't say no, so you were not an atheist. You became an atheist when you decided there is no god.
Well, that’s not entirely true. I started to consider myself an atheist when I realized that the concept of a critical god (the Judo-Christian God, or Allah or God) is irrational and highly improbable. However, I cannot rule out the existence of a supernatural entity (or entities) -- not necessarily omniscient or omnipotent, but beyond our comprehension and/or senses -- that engineered such a complex universe. There is so much still unknown about the universe and its fundamentals that renders an informed opinion about the existence of such an entity impossible. The presence of such an entity does not mean that it actively interferes in our lives. It can even be unaware of our existence

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baconeatingatheistjew wrote
Evolution is not evidence against god(50% of scientists are believe in theistic evolution), but not believing in evolution means you must believe in god or the supernatural, or how would you explain how man started on this planet?
Consciously denying evolution makes me more stupid than religious. But, again, whatever the reason that makes a person not believe in evolution, does not automatically mean that they believe that God is the explanation. Both positions are not necessarily mutually exclusive. And this brings me back to the definition of atheism. If you define atheism so narrowly as the outright denial of any supernatural power, then the answer is no, because any form of creationism entails a supernatural power. However, if you define atheism the way I do, then you can be an atheist without believing in evolution, since you do not rule out the possibility of the supernatural, but still do not believe in “God.”

With my limited knowledge of evolution, I have to admit that it is unlikely for a person to not believe in evolution and not be religious, but it is not impossible, at least philosophically speaking


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baconeatingatheistjew wrote
One more question. I'm an Atheist Jew. To be a Jew you either convert or you have a Jewish mother. It is my understanding, that one is not born a Muslim. Am I wrong about this? In other words, Christians, are not born Christian either, when they become Atheists, they are no longer defined as a Christian Atheist.

I believe Druze, are born Druze though, so you can be an Atheist Druze.

I know it is just a label, but I'm curious.
Atheist Moslem is a paradox, because a Moslem is just a religious designation, as compared to a Jew, which can also be a racial designation. However, if you’re born to Moslem parents, more specifically a Moslem father, you are a Moslem automatically. Moslem men can marry non-Moslem women, but not the other way around. And there are no rituals involved, like baptism.

I hope this answered your question.

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Old 03-15-2006, 03:52 PM   #36
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baconeatingatheistjew wrote
If asked before you were in your 20's if god existed you would say yes, or I don't know...you wouldn't say no, so you were not an atheist. You became an atheist when you decided there is no god.
Well, that’s not entirely true. I started to consider myself an atheist when I realized that the concept of a critical god (the Judo-Christian God, or Allah or God) is irrational and highly improbable. However, I cannot rule out the existence of a supernatural entity (or entities) -- not necessarily omniscient or omnipotent, but beyond our comprehension and/or senses -- that engineered such a complex universe. There is so much still unknown about the universe and its fundamentals that renders an informed opinion about the existence of such an entity impossible. The presence of such an entity does not mean that it actively interferes in our lives. It can even be unaware of our existence

Quote:
baconeatingatheistjew wrote
Evolution is not evidence against god(50% of scientists are believe in theistic evolution), but not believing in evolution means you must believe in god or the supernatural, or how would you explain how man started on this planet?
Consciously denying evolution makes me more stupid than religious. But, again, whatever the reason that makes a person not believe in evolution, does not automatically mean that they believe that God is the explanation. Both positions are not necessarily mutually exclusive. And this brings me back to the definition of atheism. If you define atheism so narrowly as the outright denial of any supernatural power, then the answer is no, because any form of creationism entails a supernatural power. However, if you define atheism the way I do, then you can be an atheist without believing in evolution, since you do not rule out the possibility of the supernatural, but still do not believe in “God.”

With my limited knowledge of evolution, I have to admit that it is unlikely for a person to not believe in evolution and not be religious, but it is not impossible, at least philosophically speaking


Quote:
baconeatingatheistjew wrote
One more question. I'm an Atheist Jew. To be a Jew you either convert or you have a Jewish mother. It is my understanding, that one is not born a Muslim. Am I wrong about this? In other words, Christians, are not born Christian either, when they become Atheists, they are no longer defined as a Christian Atheist.

I believe Druze, are born Druze though, so you can be an Atheist Druze.

I know it is just a label, but I'm curious.
Atheist Moslem is a paradox, because a Moslem is just a religious designation, as compared to a Jew, which can also be a racial designation. However, if you’re born to Moslem parents, more specifically a Moslem father, you are a Moslem automatically. Moslem men can marry non-Moslem women, but not the other way around. And there are no rituals involved, like baptism.

I hope this answered your question.

Peace.
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Old 03-15-2006, 04:06 PM   #37
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Sorry, my non-kosher carnivorous friend, but I'm not buying it. I could claim to believe tomorrow, but it wouldn't be true. The only way it could truly happen would be via some dramatic revelation, and that would hardly be my choice. You are correct insofar as one could 'choose' to believe the sky is paisley (I mean paisley all the time), but even if one did believe such a thing, that's not a choice, it's a hallucination.

Frankly, I don't think thomas or Lily or all the short-bus riders in the forum could choose atheism either. They could choose to read more science or choose to take courses in logic or make any number of other choices that may or may not make their Invisible Friend really disappear, but if/when that last thing happens, it's not because they willed it.

I dunno -- I'm just speaking from my own experience; I suppose others have a different take. Did you choose atheism?

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Old 03-15-2006, 04:06 PM   #38
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Sorry, my non-kosher carnivorous friend, but I'm not buying it. I could claim to believe tomorrow, but it wouldn't be true. The only way it could truly happen would be via some dramatic revelation, and that would hardly be my choice. You are correct insofar as one could 'choose' to believe the sky is paisley (I mean paisley all the time), but even if one did believe such a thing, that's not a choice, it's a hallucination.

Frankly, I don't think thomas or Lily or all the short-bus riders in the forum could choose atheism either. They could choose to read more science or choose to take courses in logic or make any number of other choices that may or may not make their Invisible Friend really disappear, but if/when that last thing happens, it's not because they willed it.

I dunno -- I'm just speaking from my own experience; I suppose others have a different take. Did you choose atheism?

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Old 03-15-2006, 04:41 PM   #39
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"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
Alice in Wonderland.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 03-15-2006, 04:41 PM   #40
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"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
Alice in Wonderland.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 03-15-2006, 05:14 PM   #41
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MA, you sort of sound like an Agnostic. You don't rule out the supernatural. That is a lot different than what an Atheist does. I can see an Agnostic not having to believe in evolution. But if an Atheist, someone who does not give the supernatural consideration, has to come up with an answer to whether man appeared on earth first as a man, I can't see him/her saying I don't know.

I've heard that a Moslim isn't born a Moslim for another Moslim. But aside from that, if one is born a Moslim, than you can be a Moslim for life, if you are correct about the father thingy. Are there different interpretations?

Phil, is believing in evolution a choice? Don't atheists have a choice to be agnostics?
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Old 03-15-2006, 05:14 PM   #42
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MA, you sort of sound like an Agnostic. You don't rule out the supernatural. That is a lot different than what an Atheist does. I can see an Agnostic not having to believe in evolution. But if an Atheist, someone who does not give the supernatural consideration, has to come up with an answer to whether man appeared on earth first as a man, I can't see him/her saying I don't know.

I've heard that a Moslim isn't born a Moslim for another Moslim. But aside from that, if one is born a Moslim, than you can be a Moslim for life, if you are correct about the father thingy. Are there different interpretations?

Phil, is believing in evolution a choice? Don't atheists have a choice to be agnostics?
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Old 03-15-2006, 05:32 PM   #43
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BEAJ: Please reconfigure your notion of what agnostic means.

"Phil, is believing in evolution a choice?"

I suppose one could choose between competing theories, but there aren't any ...

"Don't atheists have a choice to be agnostics?"

Nope. We're all agnostics (including theists) ... I bet no one's ever heard me say that before! I've also typed my fingers into bloody stumps writing this: You can be both atheist and agnostic. I know I am. (No beliefs in god-concepts; can't prove [or know] their existence one way or the other.)

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Old 03-15-2006, 05:32 PM   #44
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BEAJ: Please reconfigure your notion of what agnostic means.

"Phil, is believing in evolution a choice?"

I suppose one could choose between competing theories, but there aren't any ...

"Don't atheists have a choice to be agnostics?"

Nope. We're all agnostics (including theists) ... I bet no one's ever heard me say that before! I've also typed my fingers into bloody stumps writing this: You can be both atheist and agnostic. I know I am. (No beliefs in god-concepts; can't prove [or know] their existence one way or the other.)

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Old 03-15-2006, 06:30 PM   #45
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Phil, I have always said that we are all agnostics. We can't say for sure one god, or 50 gods exist. I can't even say for sure my pen isn't god.

However, I believe atheist do not allow for the possiblity that god exists. We don't shrug our shoulders as to whether god exists or not. I think MA does, by the sounds of it. When you say "who knows" you are agnostic only. When you say there is absolutely no proof that god has ever existed, so why believe there is a god, you are an atheist.
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