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Old 03-15-2006, 11:31 PM   #31
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scathach wrote
...Kandel Schwartz & Jessell, Principles of Neuroscience. They totally rock.
...ha ha..already on my Amazon.com wishlist!! ;).

The Carlson book isn't too bad. It was a required text and the first one I grabbed off my shelf...:cool:

I hope to expand my library in that area much more as time marches on.
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:39 PM   #32
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Tenspace wrote
Thanks everyone! I'm now three days without a cigarette, and I haven't yelled at anyone since 8am this morning! :D
Scat, that is excellent info. I'm printing it out and carrying it around with me. Exactly what I was looking for, a physiological description of what's going on.
I am pleased to be of service. Warm and fuzzy thoughts of you carrying my words around.

Keep up the fight to retrain your brain!!

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Choobus wrote
IS there any data on low levfels of nicotine? I can get by smoking one a day, which seems inconsequential, but if I stop for a week I feel like I have to smoke. Is this just psychological, or is it addictive even in such small doses?
Choobus my dearie, you are not addicted. To cigarettes.
There are a few studies out there on tobacco chippers to that effect:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

http://www.uic.edu/depts/psch/abstra...sselabs09.html

To my deterministic materialistic mind, there is no such thing as a non-physical or so-called "psychological" addiction, as it all has to come down to physical actions in physical brain cells at some point.

I would say that since the evidence is pretty good that chippers do not experience withdrawal and do not have altered nicotine metabolism, there is no basis for calling it addiction. So smoking one or two cigarettes per day is a learned behavior in which craving is elicited by very specific stimuli (such as anal) and for who knows what reason, you are the lucky owner of a brain that hasn't generalized the conditioning to associated stimuli.

Nice brain.
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:39 PM   #33
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Tenspace wrote
Thanks everyone! I'm now three days without a cigarette, and I haven't yelled at anyone since 8am this morning! :D
Scat, that is excellent info. I'm printing it out and carrying it around with me. Exactly what I was looking for, a physiological description of what's going on.
I am pleased to be of service. Warm and fuzzy thoughts of you carrying my words around.

Keep up the fight to retrain your brain!!

Quote:
Choobus wrote
IS there any data on low levfels of nicotine? I can get by smoking one a day, which seems inconsequential, but if I stop for a week I feel like I have to smoke. Is this just psychological, or is it addictive even in such small doses?
Choobus my dearie, you are not addicted. To cigarettes.
There are a few studies out there on tobacco chippers to that effect:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

http://www.uic.edu/depts/psch/abstra...sselabs09.html

To my deterministic materialistic mind, there is no such thing as a non-physical or so-called "psychological" addiction, as it all has to come down to physical actions in physical brain cells at some point.

I would say that since the evidence is pretty good that chippers do not experience withdrawal and do not have altered nicotine metabolism, there is no basis for calling it addiction. So smoking one or two cigarettes per day is a learned behavior in which craving is elicited by very specific stimuli (such as anal) and for who knows what reason, you are the lucky owner of a brain that hasn't generalized the conditioning to associated stimuli.

Nice brain.
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Old 03-19-2006, 09:49 AM   #34
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Researchers have discovered an archaebacterium in a deep ocean thermal vent that has voltage sensitive potassium channels in its membrane. Voltage sensitive K+ channels were previously thought to exist only in animals that have a nervous system, as the channels play a significant role in the maintenance of neural membrane equilibrium potentials and generation of action potentials. These channels in both archaebacterium membranes AND vertebrate neurons are sensitive to scorpion venom and tarantula toxin. Since they couldn't find any tarantulas or scorpions living in these deep ocean vents with the archaebacterium, the most parsimonious explanation for the same membrane structure existing in vastly different species is that the channels have been genetically conserved in chordates and co-opted in the process of evolution (Tim, is this an example of cellular level exaptation?).
scathach, thanks for taking time out of a busy week to weigh in. The archaebacterium case inspired me to noodle around the internets a bit, and though I must confess I don't fully understand why this is puzzle, it is a fascinating topic.

First, is it really true that “Voltage sensitive K+ channels were previously thought to exist only in animals that have a nervous system ...”? As an expert on ion channels -- expertise gained during my several minutes of learning what they are -- I’m finding that such channels seem to exist in almost every living cell. I gather that the archaebacterium in question is not unique for possessing K+ channels, but because it is conducive to x-ray crystallography and thus can be represented in high-resolution, molecular-level images (and so ion-channel function can be more directly analyzed). Roderick MacKinnon (a self-taught x-ray crystallographer!) did this en route to earning his half of a Nobel in chemistry in 2003).

I have other, even denser, questions about this puzzle, but I want to be clear about my first question first. Please do not hold back on the scorn and derision in your reply; I have no feelings that need sparing. :|

Meanwhile: a few weeks ago, a company launched a “new personalized holistic 3 step Detox Therapy Program, which starts with a 10-30 minute foot massage from the Miracle Electro-Wave Foot Massager. Then a BBS ionic foot bath.” The purveyor of this hooey “recommends an herbal tea that will replenish the body and enhance the detoxification process. The tea is also supplemented with Raw Apple Cider Vinegar, Raw Honey and stevia to sweeten, ginger powder and liquid alkaline minerals.” I mention this New Age yip-yap only because it claims to be based on the very ion-channel discoveries of Dr. MacKinnon.


Tenspace: Hanging in there?

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Old 03-19-2006, 09:49 AM   #35
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scathach wrote
Researchers have discovered an archaebacterium in a deep ocean thermal vent that has voltage sensitive potassium channels in its membrane. Voltage sensitive K+ channels were previously thought to exist only in animals that have a nervous system, as the channels play a significant role in the maintenance of neural membrane equilibrium potentials and generation of action potentials. These channels in both archaebacterium membranes AND vertebrate neurons are sensitive to scorpion venom and tarantula toxin. Since they couldn't find any tarantulas or scorpions living in these deep ocean vents with the archaebacterium, the most parsimonious explanation for the same membrane structure existing in vastly different species is that the channels have been genetically conserved in chordates and co-opted in the process of evolution (Tim, is this an example of cellular level exaptation?).
scathach, thanks for taking time out of a busy week to weigh in. The archaebacterium case inspired me to noodle around the internets a bit, and though I must confess I don't fully understand why this is puzzle, it is a fascinating topic.

First, is it really true that “Voltage sensitive K+ channels were previously thought to exist only in animals that have a nervous system ...”? As an expert on ion channels -- expertise gained during my several minutes of learning what they are -- I’m finding that such channels seem to exist in almost every living cell. I gather that the archaebacterium in question is not unique for possessing K+ channels, but because it is conducive to x-ray crystallography and thus can be represented in high-resolution, molecular-level images (and so ion-channel function can be more directly analyzed). Roderick MacKinnon (a self-taught x-ray crystallographer!) did this en route to earning his half of a Nobel in chemistry in 2003).

I have other, even denser, questions about this puzzle, but I want to be clear about my first question first. Please do not hold back on the scorn and derision in your reply; I have no feelings that need sparing. :|

Meanwhile: a few weeks ago, a company launched a “new personalized holistic 3 step Detox Therapy Program, which starts with a 10-30 minute foot massage from the Miracle Electro-Wave Foot Massager. Then a BBS ionic foot bath.” The purveyor of this hooey “recommends an herbal tea that will replenish the body and enhance the detoxification process. The tea is also supplemented with Raw Apple Cider Vinegar, Raw Honey and stevia to sweeten, ginger powder and liquid alkaline minerals.” I mention this New Age yip-yap only because it claims to be based on the very ion-channel discoveries of Dr. MacKinnon.


Tenspace: Hanging in there?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
La propriété, c'est le vol ...
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Old 03-19-2006, 12:41 PM   #36
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scathach wrote
OK< here's a little brain tidbit for ya! I LUV this one!

Researchers have discovered an archaebacterium in a deep ocean thermal vent that has voltage sensitive potassium channels in its membrane. Voltage sensitive K+ channels were previously thought to exist only in animals that have a nervous system, as the channels play a significant role in the maintenace of neural membrane equilibrium potentials and generation of action potentials. These channels in both archaebacterium membranes AND vertebrate neurons are sensitive to scorpion venom and tarantual toxin. Since they couldn't find any tarantulas or scorpions living in these deep ocean vents with the archaebacterium, the most parsimonious explanation for the same membrane structure existing in vastly different species is that the channels have been genetically conserved in chordates and co-opted in the process of evolution (Tim, is this an example of cellular level exaptation?).

Or maybe god was being capricious again. That crazy jokester!!!
I would imagine it may be, but it depends on the structure of the channels and especially what genes code for them, I would think.

If the archaebacteria have some other reason for needing potassium transport they could have evolved a separate mechanism for it. You'd want to look at other archaebacteria, and also see if the genes are the same as in the organisms with a nervous system. The theory that deep ocean vents are the origin of life (and thus that any such structures in vent organisms could be conserved from a common ancestor with eukaryotes with a nervous system) is not really proven. It's quite plausible that deep ocean vent bacteria have reasons for evolving voltage sensitive potassium channels that are peculiar to deep ocean vents.

However, I'd like it to be true. The crucial thing is, is it a conserved gene (or genes) indicating a shared derived character or is it separate, parallel evolution? You should be able to tell from the gene.

"You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat-catching, and will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family"
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Old 03-19-2006, 12:41 PM   #37
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scathach wrote
OK< here's a little brain tidbit for ya! I LUV this one!

Researchers have discovered an archaebacterium in a deep ocean thermal vent that has voltage sensitive potassium channels in its membrane. Voltage sensitive K+ channels were previously thought to exist only in animals that have a nervous system, as the channels play a significant role in the maintenace of neural membrane equilibrium potentials and generation of action potentials. These channels in both archaebacterium membranes AND vertebrate neurons are sensitive to scorpion venom and tarantual toxin. Since they couldn't find any tarantulas or scorpions living in these deep ocean vents with the archaebacterium, the most parsimonious explanation for the same membrane structure existing in vastly different species is that the channels have been genetically conserved in chordates and co-opted in the process of evolution (Tim, is this an example of cellular level exaptation?).

Or maybe god was being capricious again. That crazy jokester!!!
I would imagine it may be, but it depends on the structure of the channels and especially what genes code for them, I would think.

If the archaebacteria have some other reason for needing potassium transport they could have evolved a separate mechanism for it. You'd want to look at other archaebacteria, and also see if the genes are the same as in the organisms with a nervous system. The theory that deep ocean vents are the origin of life (and thus that any such structures in vent organisms could be conserved from a common ancestor with eukaryotes with a nervous system) is not really proven. It's quite plausible that deep ocean vent bacteria have reasons for evolving voltage sensitive potassium channels that are peculiar to deep ocean vents.

However, I'd like it to be true. The crucial thing is, is it a conserved gene (or genes) indicating a shared derived character or is it separate, parallel evolution? You should be able to tell from the gene.

"You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat-catching, and will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family"
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Old 03-20-2006, 12:19 PM   #38
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Well, back to report that I'm still smoke free, I still hate everyone, and I am available for hire to solve the problems you might be too fed up with to handle yourself. AOL still billing you after cancelling your account? Not a problem, I can get a tier-3 customer support supervisor on the phone faster than you can say "free cd!"

Some jerk cut you off when you hit your signal, trying to move over for your turn? Give me his license, I'll make sure to track him down, call him up, and call him some really strong names. I might even right a strong letter.

And don't even deride me, or I'll have to break out.... no... don't say it.... yes... THE COMFY CHAIR!

Seriously, though, the nicotine isn't an issue much... the anger I'm slowly coming to grips with, but I do find myself saying certain things more often, like... "Don't ask me to repeat myself", or "I told you no once, why are you still asking?", or even "You raced up the turn lane in front of the elementary school just to get three cars ahead causing a near accident when you merged an inch in front of me, AND IT'S MY FAULT???? Fuck you, soccer mom."

"Science and Mother Nature are in a marriage where Science is always surprised to come home and find Mother Nature blowing the neighbor." - Justin's Dad
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Old 03-20-2006, 12:19 PM   #39
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Well, back to report that I'm still smoke free, I still hate everyone, and I am available for hire to solve the problems you might be too fed up with to handle yourself. AOL still billing you after cancelling your account? Not a problem, I can get a tier-3 customer support supervisor on the phone faster than you can say "free cd!"

Some jerk cut you off when you hit your signal, trying to move over for your turn? Give me his license, I'll make sure to track him down, call him up, and call him some really strong names. I might even right a strong letter.

And don't even deride me, or I'll have to break out.... no... don't say it.... yes... THE COMFY CHAIR!

Seriously, though, the nicotine isn't an issue much... the anger I'm slowly coming to grips with, but I do find myself saying certain things more often, like... "Don't ask me to repeat myself", or "I told you no once, why are you still asking?", or even "You raced up the turn lane in front of the elementary school just to get three cars ahead causing a near accident when you merged an inch in front of me, AND IT'S MY FAULT???? Fuck you, soccer mom."

"Science and Mother Nature are in a marriage where Science is always surprised to come home and find Mother Nature blowing the neighbor." - Justin's Dad
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:06 PM   #40
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This was in my email this morning, and thought it'd give you some ideas, Ten:

Anger Management ... (British Solution)


When you occasionally have a really bad day, and you just need to take it out on someone, don't take it out on someone you know, take it out on someone you don't know.


I was sitting at my desk when I remembered a phone call I'd forgotten to make. I found the number and dialed it. A man answered, saying "Hello." I politely said, "This is Chris. Could I please speak with Robyn Carter?" Suddenly a manic voice yelled out in my ear "Get the right f**in number!" and the phone was slammed down on me. I couldn't believe that anyone could be so rude. When I tracked down Robyn's correct number to call her, I found that I had accidentally transposed the last two digits.

After hanging up with her, I decided to call the 'wrong' number again. When the same guy answered the phone, I yelled " You're an arsehole!" and hung up. I wrote his number down with the word 'arsehole' next to it, and put it in my desk drawer.

Every couple of weeks, when I was paying bills or had a really bad day, I'd call him up and yell, "You're an arsehole!" It always cheered me up. When Caller ID was introduced, I thought my therapeutic 'arsehole' calling would have to stop. So, I called his number and said, "Hi, this is John Smith from the Telstra. I'm calling to see if you're familiar with our Caller ID Program?" He yelled "NO!" and slammed down the phone. I quickly called him back and said, "That's because you're an arsehole!"


One day I was at the store, getting ready to pull into a parking spot. Some guy in a black BMW cut me off and pulled into the spot I had patiently waited for. I hit the horn and yelled that I'd been waiting for that spot, but the idiot ignored me. I noticed a "For Sale" sign in his back window, so I wrote down his number.


A couple of days later, right after calling the first arsehole (I had his number on speed dial), I thought that I'd better call the BMW arsehole, too. I said, "Is this the man with the black BMW for sale?"

"Yes, it is", he said. "Can you tell me where I can see it?" I asked. "Yes, I live at 34 Mowbray Blvd, in Vaucluse. It's a yellow house, and the car's parked right out in front." "What's your name?" I asked. "My name is Don Hansen," he said. "When's a good time to catch you, Don?" "I'm home every evening after five."

"Listen, Don, can I tell you something?" "Yes?" "Don, you're an arsehole!" Then I hung up, and added his number to my speed dial, too. Now, when I had a problem, I had two arseholes to call.


Then I came up with an idea. I called Arsehole #1.


"Hello."


"You're an arsehole!" (But I didn't hang up.)


"Are you still there?" he asked.


"Yeah," I said.


"Stop calling me," he screamed.


"Make me," I said.


"Who are you?" he asked.


"My name is Don Hansen."


"Yeah? Where do you live?"


"Arsehole, I live at 34 Mowbray Blvd, Vaucluse, a yellow house, with my black Beamer parked in front." He said, "I'm coming over right now, Don. And you had better start saying your prayers." I said, "Yeah, like I'm really scared, arsehole," and hung up.


Then I called Arsehole #2. "Hello?" he said.


"Hello, arsehole," I said.


He yelled, "If I ever find out who you are..."


"You'll what?" I said.


"I'll kick your fu**in head in," he exclaimed.


I answered, "Well, arsehole, here's your chance. I'm coming over right now."

Then I hung up and immediately called the police, saying that I lived at 34 Mowbray Blvd, Vaucluse, and that I was on my way over there to kill my gay lover. Then I called Channel 9 News about the gang war going down in Mowbray Blvd, Vaucluse.


I quickly got into my car and headed over to Mowbray. I got there just in time to watch two arseholes beating the crap out of each other in front of six cop cars, an overhead police helicopter and a news crew.



NOW I feel much better.

"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:06 PM   #41
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This was in my email this morning, and thought it'd give you some ideas, Ten:

Anger Management ... (British Solution)


When you occasionally have a really bad day, and you just need to take it out on someone, don't take it out on someone you know, take it out on someone you don't know.


I was sitting at my desk when I remembered a phone call I'd forgotten to make. I found the number and dialed it. A man answered, saying "Hello." I politely said, "This is Chris. Could I please speak with Robyn Carter?" Suddenly a manic voice yelled out in my ear "Get the right f**in number!" and the phone was slammed down on me. I couldn't believe that anyone could be so rude. When I tracked down Robyn's correct number to call her, I found that I had accidentally transposed the last two digits.

After hanging up with her, I decided to call the 'wrong' number again. When the same guy answered the phone, I yelled " You're an arsehole!" and hung up. I wrote his number down with the word 'arsehole' next to it, and put it in my desk drawer.

Every couple of weeks, when I was paying bills or had a really bad day, I'd call him up and yell, "You're an arsehole!" It always cheered me up. When Caller ID was introduced, I thought my therapeutic 'arsehole' calling would have to stop. So, I called his number and said, "Hi, this is John Smith from the Telstra. I'm calling to see if you're familiar with our Caller ID Program?" He yelled "NO!" and slammed down the phone. I quickly called him back and said, "That's because you're an arsehole!"


One day I was at the store, getting ready to pull into a parking spot. Some guy in a black BMW cut me off and pulled into the spot I had patiently waited for. I hit the horn and yelled that I'd been waiting for that spot, but the idiot ignored me. I noticed a "For Sale" sign in his back window, so I wrote down his number.


A couple of days later, right after calling the first arsehole (I had his number on speed dial), I thought that I'd better call the BMW arsehole, too. I said, "Is this the man with the black BMW for sale?"

"Yes, it is", he said. "Can you tell me where I can see it?" I asked. "Yes, I live at 34 Mowbray Blvd, in Vaucluse. It's a yellow house, and the car's parked right out in front." "What's your name?" I asked. "My name is Don Hansen," he said. "When's a good time to catch you, Don?" "I'm home every evening after five."

"Listen, Don, can I tell you something?" "Yes?" "Don, you're an arsehole!" Then I hung up, and added his number to my speed dial, too. Now, when I had a problem, I had two arseholes to call.


Then I came up with an idea. I called Arsehole #1.


"Hello."


"You're an arsehole!" (But I didn't hang up.)


"Are you still there?" he asked.


"Yeah," I said.


"Stop calling me," he screamed.


"Make me," I said.


"Who are you?" he asked.


"My name is Don Hansen."


"Yeah? Where do you live?"


"Arsehole, I live at 34 Mowbray Blvd, Vaucluse, a yellow house, with my black Beamer parked in front." He said, "I'm coming over right now, Don. And you had better start saying your prayers." I said, "Yeah, like I'm really scared, arsehole," and hung up.


Then I called Arsehole #2. "Hello?" he said.


"Hello, arsehole," I said.


He yelled, "If I ever find out who you are..."


"You'll what?" I said.


"I'll kick your fu**in head in," he exclaimed.


I answered, "Well, arsehole, here's your chance. I'm coming over right now."

Then I hung up and immediately called the police, saying that I lived at 34 Mowbray Blvd, Vaucluse, and that I was on my way over there to kill my gay lover. Then I called Channel 9 News about the gang war going down in Mowbray Blvd, Vaucluse.


I quickly got into my car and headed over to Mowbray. I got there just in time to watch two arseholes beating the crap out of each other in front of six cop cars, an overhead police helicopter and a news crew.



NOW I feel much better.

"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:14 PM   #42
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Tenspace wrote
...And don't even deride me, or I'll have to break out.... no... don't say it.... yes... THE COMFY CHAIR!"
NOT..........

THE COMFY CHAIR??!!!!

Glad to hear you're doing well. Keep up the good work it will be so worth it in the end. ;)

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Old 03-20-2006, 03:14 PM   #43
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Quote:
Tenspace wrote
...And don't even deride me, or I'll have to break out.... no... don't say it.... yes... THE COMFY CHAIR!"
NOT..........

THE COMFY CHAIR??!!!!

Glad to hear you're doing well. Keep up the good work it will be so worth it in the end. ;)

Invisibility and nothingness look an awful lot alike.
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:16 PM   #44
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That's great, Kate. :lol:

When will people learn not to be assholes with their phone number on their vehicle?

"Science and Mother Nature are in a marriage where Science is always surprised to come home and find Mother Nature blowing the neighbor." - Justin's Dad
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:16 PM   #45
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That's great, Kate. :lol:

When will people learn not to be assholes with their phone number on their vehicle?

"Science and Mother Nature are in a marriage where Science is always surprised to come home and find Mother Nature blowing the neighbor." - Justin's Dad
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