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Old 03-16-2006, 04:42 PM   #31
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Well, I just talked with him. It seems as though he's completely dropped the idea. I can't say that I had anything to do with it (or if he is just being a dick, for that matter) but we talked mostly about the implications of mixing electronics and neurology.

One interesting point was in the emerging ability for people to build artificial retinas for people who are legally blind. The potential is that such implants could respond far more quickly and with greater range of perception than the biological version (which have to "recharge" their Na/K pumps to build and action potential, etc.). Then, what if you can do the same thing for the rest of the brain? What does that do for our entire perception of reality? Rhinoq?
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Old 03-16-2006, 04:42 PM   #32
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Well, I just talked with him. It seems as though he's completely dropped the idea. I can't say that I had anything to do with it (or if he is just being a dick, for that matter) but we talked mostly about the implications of mixing electronics and neurology.

One interesting point was in the emerging ability for people to build artificial retinas for people who are legally blind. The potential is that such implants could respond far more quickly and with greater range of perception than the biological version (which have to "recharge" their Na/K pumps to build and action potential, etc.). Then, what if you can do the same thing for the rest of the brain? What does that do for our entire perception of reality? Rhinoq?
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Old 03-16-2006, 05:17 PM   #33
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whoneedscience wrote
Well, I just talked with him. It seems as though he's completely dropped the idea. I can't say that I had anything to do with it (or if he is just being a dick, for that matter) but we talked mostly about the implications of mixing electronics and neurology.

One interesting point was in the emerging ability for people to build artificial retinas for people who are legally blind. The potential is that such implants could respond far more quickly and with greater range of perception than the biological version (which have to "recharge" their Na/K pumps to build and action potential, etc.). Then, what if you can do the same thing for the rest of the brain? What does that do for our entire perception of reality? Rhinoq?
Short Answer: I'm fine with the possibility of replacing the brain with an "artificial construct", as I see personal identity as an emergant from our brains "software" rather than it's "hardware".

Long Answer: No long answer for right now. It's a holiday for me! I'm on my sixth beer, and it's getting hard to hold a train of thought (not to mention typing)!

Wait just a minute-You expect me to believe-That all this misbehaving-Grew from one enchanted tree? And helpless to fight it-We should all be satisfied-With this magical explanation-For why the living die-And why it's hard to be a decent human being - David Bazan
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Old 03-16-2006, 05:17 PM   #34
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whoneedscience wrote
Well, I just talked with him. It seems as though he's completely dropped the idea. I can't say that I had anything to do with it (or if he is just being a dick, for that matter) but we talked mostly about the implications of mixing electronics and neurology.

One interesting point was in the emerging ability for people to build artificial retinas for people who are legally blind. The potential is that such implants could respond far more quickly and with greater range of perception than the biological version (which have to "recharge" their Na/K pumps to build and action potential, etc.). Then, what if you can do the same thing for the rest of the brain? What does that do for our entire perception of reality? Rhinoq?
Short Answer: I'm fine with the possibility of replacing the brain with an "artificial construct", as I see personal identity as an emergant from our brains "software" rather than it's "hardware".

Long Answer: No long answer for right now. It's a holiday for me! I'm on my sixth beer, and it's getting hard to hold a train of thought (not to mention typing)!

Wait just a minute-You expect me to believe-That all this misbehaving-Grew from one enchanted tree? And helpless to fight it-We should all be satisfied-With this magical explanation-For why the living die-And why it's hard to be a decent human being - David Bazan
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Old 03-16-2006, 05:43 PM   #35
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Rhinoqulous wrote
Short Answer: I'm fine with the possibility of replacing the brain with an "artificial construct", as I see personal identity as an emergant from our brains "software" rather than it's "hardware".

Long Answer: No long answer for right now. It's a holiday for me! I'm on my sixth beer, and it's getting hard to hold a train of thought (not to mention typing)!
:lol: Fair enough. Enjoy your day.

When you have a chance, though, where do you get the idea that there is anything even comparable to software in the human brain? I mean, it seems reasonable enough to make the assumption based off our conception of computing, but it's still an assumption as I see it. Neurons are capable of changing their synapses, so drawing a direct parallel would seem fallacious. Where would the programming even come from? Where would it reside? Couldn't that be changed just as easily?
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Old 03-16-2006, 05:43 PM   #36
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Rhinoqulous wrote
Short Answer: I'm fine with the possibility of replacing the brain with an "artificial construct", as I see personal identity as an emergant from our brains "software" rather than it's "hardware".

Long Answer: No long answer for right now. It's a holiday for me! I'm on my sixth beer, and it's getting hard to hold a train of thought (not to mention typing)!
:lol: Fair enough. Enjoy your day.

When you have a chance, though, where do you get the idea that there is anything even comparable to software in the human brain? I mean, it seems reasonable enough to make the assumption based off our conception of computing, but it's still an assumption as I see it. Neurons are capable of changing their synapses, so drawing a direct parallel would seem fallacious. Where would the programming even come from? Where would it reside? Couldn't that be changed just as easily?
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Old 03-16-2006, 08:08 PM   #37
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Now, it may well be that he is, in some sense, right, or that I'm misunderstanding him (I don't know enough about how neurons make connections or how they could be modeled in another medium, particularly silicon) but the thing that really struck me is that he's trying to make a philosophical claim that there is some human essence that is not contained in the brain: a Cartesian Soul, although he again refuses to address it. The man has a P.h.D in mathematics and studies biological systems modeling, so I'm simply baffled by this.

Does anyone have any resources or opinions on this? I'll probably see him again on Thursday. Rhinoq? Scathach? Judge?
I'm not completely sure if I am addressing what you are talking about here in regards to neuron connections or being bodeled in another medium, however a few years ago, I was watching something about scientists who have actually grown brain cells on microchips. I am trying to find some information on the study right now. I will post when I find it, or if this has absolutely nothing to do with what you are saying, I'll just stop looking...

Also, about whether or not computers can make art, that is appreciable to human standards, just take a look at fractals. I've seen some pretty amazing pictures that were done completely with computers (albeit with the input of the mathematical formulas by humans)
You are right, they are beautiful. More than that, they are provebly infinitely complex (not just the piddling complexity of this universe of ours) and they arise from the formula "X = X^2 + c where X[0] = 0+0i, c = x+yi". That's it, the entire thing, the "mathematical formulas input by humans". (Mandelbrot set)

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Old 03-16-2006, 08:08 PM   #38
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Bighead wrote
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whoneedscience wrote
Now, it may well be that he is, in some sense, right, or that I'm misunderstanding him (I don't know enough about how neurons make connections or how they could be modeled in another medium, particularly silicon) but the thing that really struck me is that he's trying to make a philosophical claim that there is some human essence that is not contained in the brain: a Cartesian Soul, although he again refuses to address it. The man has a P.h.D in mathematics and studies biological systems modeling, so I'm simply baffled by this.

Does anyone have any resources or opinions on this? I'll probably see him again on Thursday. Rhinoq? Scathach? Judge?
I'm not completely sure if I am addressing what you are talking about here in regards to neuron connections or being bodeled in another medium, however a few years ago, I was watching something about scientists who have actually grown brain cells on microchips. I am trying to find some information on the study right now. I will post when I find it, or if this has absolutely nothing to do with what you are saying, I'll just stop looking...

Also, about whether or not computers can make art, that is appreciable to human standards, just take a look at fractals. I've seen some pretty amazing pictures that were done completely with computers (albeit with the input of the mathematical formulas by humans)
You are right, they are beautiful. More than that, they are provebly infinitely complex (not just the piddling complexity of this universe of ours) and they arise from the formula "X = X^2 + c where X[0] = 0+0i, c = x+yi". That's it, the entire thing, the "mathematical formulas input by humans". (Mandelbrot set)

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 03-17-2006, 07:01 AM   #39
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Rhinoqulous wrote
Short Answer: I'm fine with the possibility of replacing the brain with an "artificial construct", as I see personal identity as an emergant from our brains "software" rather than it's "hardware".
Then how do you explain how people who experience some traumatic brain damage, can recover completely but with completely different personalities?
Not a jab, but a serious question.
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Old 03-17-2006, 07:01 AM   #40
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Rhinoqulous wrote
Short Answer: I'm fine with the possibility of replacing the brain with an "artificial construct", as I see personal identity as an emergant from our brains "software" rather than it's "hardware".
Then how do you explain how people who experience some traumatic brain damage, can recover completely but with completely different personalities?
Not a jab, but a serious question.
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Old 03-17-2006, 07:37 AM   #41
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Bighead wrote
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Rhinoqulous wrote
Short Answer: I'm fine with the possibility of replacing the brain with an "artificial construct", as I see personal identity as an emergant from our brains "software" rather than it's "hardware".
Then how do you explain how people who experience some traumatic brain damage, can recover completely but with completely different personalities?
Not a jab, but a serious question.
Ow. Hurts to type. Yeah, I'm calling into work with a dead grandma today.

I should have written "drunk answer" instead of "short answer".

I've read studies of people recovering from brain trauma not only displaying different personalities, but when the hemispheres of the brain are separated, under laboratory conditions each hemisphere displays a separate consciousness. I'll have to go dig out my cognitive psych book to find the study, but I'll do that later. I'm going to lie down for a while first.

Wait just a minute-You expect me to believe-That all this misbehaving-Grew from one enchanted tree? And helpless to fight it-We should all be satisfied-With this magical explanation-For why the living die-And why it's hard to be a decent human being - David Bazan
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Old 03-17-2006, 07:37 AM   #42
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Bighead wrote
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Rhinoqulous wrote
Short Answer: I'm fine with the possibility of replacing the brain with an "artificial construct", as I see personal identity as an emergant from our brains "software" rather than it's "hardware".
Then how do you explain how people who experience some traumatic brain damage, can recover completely but with completely different personalities?
Not a jab, but a serious question.
Ow. Hurts to type. Yeah, I'm calling into work with a dead grandma today.

I should have written "drunk answer" instead of "short answer".

I've read studies of people recovering from brain trauma not only displaying different personalities, but when the hemispheres of the brain are separated, under laboratory conditions each hemisphere displays a separate consciousness. I'll have to go dig out my cognitive psych book to find the study, but I'll do that later. I'm going to lie down for a while first.

Wait just a minute-You expect me to believe-That all this misbehaving-Grew from one enchanted tree? And helpless to fight it-We should all be satisfied-With this magical explanation-For why the living die-And why it's hard to be a decent human being - David Bazan
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Old 03-17-2006, 08:13 AM   #43
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Sorry I came to the thread late, but a former colleague, David Cope, has a computer program ("Experments in Musical Intelligence") that can churn out unlimited compositions in any composer's style.

Go to http://arts.ucsc.edu/faculty/cope/experiments.htm
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Old 03-17-2006, 08:13 AM   #44
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Sorry I came to the thread late, but a former colleague, David Cope, has a computer program ("Experments in Musical Intelligence") that can churn out unlimited compositions in any composer's style.

Go to http://arts.ucsc.edu/faculty/cope/experiments.htm
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Old 03-17-2006, 09:44 AM   #45
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But can you get the generative algorithms off him? Now that I would be interested in.....

Early generative music, by Mozart:

Here for the original (you can order it) and here for a MIDI version.

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