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Old 09-20-2006, 01:48 AM   #1
SuX0rZ
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Watched a DVD today. On intelligent design vs. evolution.
There areguments were this:

-How does evolution explain the cell

-Where did the mechanisms/organisms that make up a cell originate from?

-Bacterial Flagellum is proof of intelligent design

-Irreducable complexity=multiple components in a cell that a necessary for function. If you remove one part, you loose function of that system.

-Evolution cannot explain how cells orginated

-Is this scientific or religiously motivated? It does have metaphysical aspects to it

-Co-option= evolution was able to borrow components from older bacterium
Where do you borrow the pieces? and is therefore not an argument against irreducable complexity.

-Chemical Evolution does not explain origins

-Natural selection does not work before there was self replication or DNA

-Information in cells and dna shows that a deisger was present. A human recognises when something was designed because an improbable object is recognised

-Human beings are an improbable object
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Old 09-20-2006, 05:52 AM   #2
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Pretty shit arguments, really. How old was that DVD? You could get a decent answer to all of them with a single trip to talkorigins.
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Old 09-20-2006, 08:24 AM   #3
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ID is dead. What's the newly titled creationist movement going to be? Shall we place bets?
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Old 09-20-2006, 08:54 AM   #4
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I once pointed out to a preacher that even if ID is real, then that means we can tell a lot about god.

For instance, with all the poisons, parasites, and viruses, not to mention the harsh and deadly cycle of life, we can see that god is one sadistical muthafucka.

And with all the flaws in nature (incompetent design), that would indicate that he's either not all knowing, or not all powerful (unless, of course, he made us flawed for his sadistical pleasure).

You know what else is funny?

Gravity.

We don't know everything about it, but that doesn't mean we should go believing in the invisible gravity demons. Hell, you could make a list like the ID one and talk about "problems with gravity" and then conclude that therefore there must be something more than particals and such at work, but something like an invisible gravity demon.

I'm sick of the ID guys, so sick that I hope they fucking drown in their own shit.
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Old 09-20-2006, 08:58 AM   #5
Kate
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Quote:
Baphomet wrote
....that doesn't mean we should go believing in the invisible gravity demons....
:|

:|

:/

:(

It doesn't? Dang.

"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
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Old 09-20-2006, 09:05 AM   #6
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myst7426 wrote
ID is dead. What's the newly titled creationist movement going to be? Shall we place bets?
Absolute Reinforcement

God is absolute and he reinforces science with his absolution. :lol:
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Old 09-20-2006, 09:07 AM   #7
Kate
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Don't you mean "Absolut Reinforcement"?

"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
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Old 09-24-2006, 10:04 AM   #8
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-How does evolution explain the cell

How does ID? It simply states that some intelligent designer created the cell. Who is this intelligent designer? What is the evidence that this intelligent designer exists? How does this designer implement its designs? Where did this intelligent designer come from?

While it is still difficult to prove, the best hypothesis is that self replicating molecules arose from the atoms and molecules available at the time and they gradually evolved into cells.



-Where did the mechanisms/organisms that make up a cell originate from?
They originated from the laws of physics and chemistry. The first self-replicating molecules would be unable to replicate if changes in their structure etc. reduced their ability to replicate. Thus, over time, more able replicating mechanisms developed. The forces that impose selection are the laws of physics.

Once again, what's the ID explanation for the mechanisms by which the cell arose? Oh that's right, there is none, unless you count "godidit" as an explanation.

-Bacterial Flagellum is proof of intelligent design
This one has been refuted ad nauseum. You can find articles by Ken Miller (a thestic scientist) among others refuting this argument. As it turns out, the flagellum isn't irreducibly complex, because they've found a simpler structure from which it arose.

-Irreducable complexity=multiple components in a cell that a necessary for function. If you remove one part, you loose function of that system.
Most of the examples of irreducible complexity used by ID proponents have been refuted. But even if a system is irreducibly complex in its present form, that doesn't disprove evolution. A system could have had other parts which later became redundant and thus selected against. Again, Ken Miller has some great examples of this.


-Evolution cannot explain how cells orginated
Evolution does not attempt to explain how cells or any life forms originated. Only how they changed over time via selection processes.

Again, ID doesn't explain it either.

-Is this scientific or religiously motivated? It does have metaphysical aspects to it
ID is certainly religiously motivated.

-Co-option= evolution was able to borrow components from older bacterium
Where do you borrow the pieces? and is therefore not an argument against irreducable complexity.

The pieces were borrowed by inheritience. A primitive cell divides and due to mutations, the daughter cell has an advantageous trait.


-Chemical Evolution does not explain origins
We don't have the evidence to prove that life arose due to the evolution of self replicating molecules from the primordial soup, but if we did, it would explain origins. These old molecules started self replicating, and eventually evolved into primitive cells.

-Natural selection does not work before there was self replication or DNA
Correct. This is in the realm of abiogenesis.

-Information in cells and dna shows that a deisger was present. A human recognises when something was designed because an improbable object is recognised
How does it show that a designer was present? Why does improbability necessarily mean that something must be designed? What is the probability that atoms exist? Or that energy exists? These all exhbit traits that could be considered "designed." In fact, where does the notion of irreducible complexity stop? Does it stop at the level of the atom? The particles that make up an atom?

-Human beings are an improbable object
Improbably perhaps, but not impossible. It's also improbable that a couple can have 5 sons and only sons, but I know of such a couple. It's improbable that people will win the lottery, but people do win it.

This intelligent designer is also an improbable object. In fact there is zero evidence supporting its existence. There is zero evidence supporting even the possibility that it could exist.

Again, ID can only poke holes at gaps in our knowledge. But it fails to address those gaps and it is not even really a theory. It is only an attempt to refute evolution, but it provides no evidence for its own claims. "Godidit" simply doesn't cut it as an explanation.
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Old 09-24-2006, 11:04 AM   #9
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Baphomet -- Great point! If God really did design all life, why did he allow virus and predators? We could all be bug- or plant-eaters and that would cut down on the suffering.

If religion were based on facts, it would be called science, and no one would believe it. -- Stephen Colbert
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Old 09-24-2006, 01:40 PM   #10
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We wouldn't need to eat anything if God really did design the universe and all life. If he created the universe, he must be capable of creating energy and matter. Rather than having lifeforms feed on each other, he could have just created all organisms such that they have an unlimited supply of energy and matter to fulfill their requirements.
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Old 09-24-2006, 01:43 PM   #11
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Metman07 wrote
We wouldn't need to eat anything if God really did design the universe and all life. If he created the universe, he must be capable of creating energy and matter. Rather than having lifeforms feed on each other, he could have just created all organisms such that they have an unlimited supply of energy and matter to fulfill their requirements.
Yeah we all could have fed off sunlight or something.
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Old 09-24-2006, 01:57 PM   #12
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myst7426 wrote
ID is dead. What's the newly titled creationist movement going to be? Shall we place bets?
Biblical biology... ism.

"When science was in its infancy, religion tried to strangle it in its cradle." - Robert G. Ingersoll
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Old 09-24-2006, 07:08 PM   #13
Metman07
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Baphomet wrote
Quote:
Metman07 wrote
We wouldn't need to eat anything if God really did design the universe and all life. If he created the universe, he must be capable of creating energy and matter. Rather than having lifeforms feed on each other, he could have just created all organisms such that they have an unlimited supply of energy and matter to fulfill their requirements.
Yeah we all could have fed off sunlight or something.
Or better still, we could have an internal supply of energy and matter, thereby eliminating the need to procure these from outside sources.
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Old 09-24-2006, 07:17 PM   #14
Baphomet
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Metman07 wrote
Quote:
Baphomet wrote
Quote:
Metman07 wrote
We wouldn't need to eat anything if God really did design the universe and all life. If he created the universe, he must be capable of creating energy and matter. Rather than having lifeforms feed on each other, he could have just created all organisms such that they have an unlimited supply of energy and matter to fulfill their requirements.
Yeah we all could have fed off sunlight or something.
Or better still, we could have an internal supply of energy and matter, thereby eliminating the need to procure these from outside sources.
But then god couldn't show his loving powers of starvation and famine!
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Old 09-24-2006, 08:22 PM   #15
HeathenLifer
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"That pencil may look red, but you can't say how it got red. Therfore, its an elephant."

If your calculator adds your inputs 2 and 3 and gets 5, but the real problem you were trying to solve was 2 plus 2, the machine gives the wrong answer for your problem. The machine isn\'t broken and yet it got the wrong answer. It was gullible and believed your lie and behaved accordingly. - Sternwallow
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