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Old 03-03-2005, 09:40 AM   #31
Micah12
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Little Earth Stamper wrote
Um... there was stuff in the universe before the earth appeared, Micah.

You know, people here are making a lot of fun of you, but you don't seem to grasp something; The advent of the universe, the advent of earth, and the advent of life on earth are three different events. This is basic middle school science stuff. I don't know who told you what our arguments for an old earth are, but they were sorely mistaken.

Until you understand what our arguments are a bit better then you do, you shouldn't try to refute them. Most of your arguments are fairly common and refutations have been diseminated on the internet. Instead of arguing about what people say we say, you should argue about what we do say.

As for the poetry of the big bang, you say that it's ridiculous, but you seem to be a Christian. As far as I can tell, there was a void, and then God was there. Why is it more plausible for your god to come into existence for no reason then it is for our universe to come into existence for no reason?

PS Dayspring, There is in fact a remote possibility that a being bigger then myself exists. Why do you ask?
If there was stuff before the earth appeared where did it come from?

I thought you evolutionists believed that the world was billions of years old.

God did not just come into existence. He has always been here. If the universe had an end (such as a brick wall) what would be beyond the wall. So the universe has no end. In the same way God has been here for eternity.
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Old 03-03-2005, 09:43 AM   #32
Micah12
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schemanista wrote
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Micah12 wrote
I think I do understand that you believe 4.6 billion years ago there was nothing.
I think you don't understand anything.

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And then that nothingness berped and life popped up. If you do not believe that is how we got here than how do you think we got here?
Singularity wasn't nothing.

You're not familiar with logical constructs so I'll nudge you in the right direction. Making up an argument (i.e. "the Big Bang theory says that the universe came from nothing"), which your oponent in a debate has never claimed and then refuting it is known as a straw man argument.

The only way your pitiful understanding of science could make a statement even approximating what the evidence suggests is to re-phrase your argument as "so you atheists are saying that in the beginning was everything! So how did we get here?"

But that requires a level of intellectual honesty to which you probably can never aspire.

Read the book. Come back when you're ready.
Um, if there was stuff before the big bang (big dud) then where did it come from?
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Old 03-03-2005, 10:17 AM   #33
VOICE-of-REASON
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Micah wrote
If the universe had an end (such as a brick wall) what would be beyond the wall. So the universe has no end.
Funny how you fail to grasp the full meaning, and the logical implication of that assertion. IF the universe has no end, i.e.: that the universe is everywhere, and everywhere is the universe--then whatever god you invent is necessarily INSIDE, and PART of the universe, in which case he could not have created it in the first place--in which case he would not be 'god'.
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Old 03-03-2005, 11:01 AM   #34
Erik
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Dayspring,

You are apparently not much of a history student. It is only in recent centuries that populations have been able to grow at that sort of rate, because the technologies became available to produce enough food and subsequently to prevent death from diseases. This is leaving aside the evidence that the cities of Sumer, Egypt and Palestine didn't just spring up overnight. Solomon may have had a gajillion wives and concubines, but there is not a shred of evidence to suggest that the population of Palestine exploded at the time period Solomon is alleged to have lived. But hey, don't let the facts get in the way.
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Old 03-03-2005, 11:11 AM   #35
schemanista
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Micah12 wrote
Um, if there was stuff before the big bang (big dud) then where did it come from?
Still haven't read the book?

Short answer: we don't know.

Long answer: read the goddamn book.

Or at least read this article.
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Old 03-03-2005, 11:37 AM   #36
schemanista
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Dayspring wrote
I would like for you to notify me of these things. I know that there are rocks that are older than 4400 years because they would survive anything. I would like to hear about some once living things that are older than 4400 years.
Do I understand you correctly? Are you insisting that no life existed before 4,400 years ago? I wonder how you'll support that assertion.

Could you start by explaining how rocks as old as 3.5 billion years don't really contain prokaryotic fossils, as paeleobiologists claim? Or maybe you could explain how the method used to arrive at the date of those rocks is inaccurate (you'd better know an awful lot about radioisotopes).

How about explaining to archaeologists that, depending on how one defines it, human "civilization" cannot really be dated to between 11,000 and 9,500 years ago, as they assert?

Are you gonna dance all night with your hand on his ass, or do you really intend to do the nasty?
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Old 03-03-2005, 11:48 AM   #37
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How about some bristlecone pines?

Or perhaps a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creosote_bush]creosote bush?

Maybe some other really old stuff?

Of course, the age of living things has not much to do with the age of the earth, which has not much to do with the age of the universe. For Thor's sake, go get that book.
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Old 03-03-2005, 12:17 PM   #38
Dux
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I would like for you to notify me of these things. I know that there are rocks that are older than 4400 years because they would survive anything. I would like to hear about some once living things that are older than 4400 years.
I would, but I get a feeling you'd ignore it, so why bother.

Edit: ocmpoma apparently did the job for me, but I'm sure you can debunk his claims, right?
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Old 03-03-2005, 02:02 PM   #39
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Dux wrote
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I would like for you to notify me of these things. I know that there are rocks that are older than 4400 years because they would survive anything. I would like to hear about some once living things that are older than 4400 years.
I would, but I get a feeling you'd ignore it, so why bother.
if your not going to bother convincing us otherwise, why the hell are you posting here?
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Old 03-03-2005, 02:32 PM   #40
Micah12
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schemanista wrote
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Micah12 wrote
Um, if there was stuff before the big bang (big dud) then where did it come from?
Still haven't read the book?

Short answer: we don't know.

Long answer: read the goddamn book.

Or at least read this article.
I am working on getting the book so don't bother me about it again.

You don't know where it came from. And you're calling me a fool because I say that a superior being made everything. First, get your [u]THEORY[/u] straightened out before you call me stupid.
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Old 03-03-2005, 02:48 PM   #41
schemanista
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Micah12 wrote
I am working on getting the book so don't bother me about it again.
Your argument in this entire discussion is as stupid as if I claimed that the Bible said that Jesus was an eight foot tall rabbit. The Gospels make no such claim. And you don't know enough about Big Bang cosmology nor the evidence on which it's based to even discuss it intelligently.

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If you don't know where the stuff before the big bang came from then why do you stick with such a dumb ferry tale you are calling science. And I don't know why Christians have to pay our tax dollars to support a lie that is sending our nation to hell.
If you don't know enough about the scientific claims which you're attempting to refute to even represent them properly, then how can you evaluate their truth or their falsity?

When you say "it's stupid to say that the big bang created the universe from nothing", the only stupidity which you expose is your own. A fifteen minute Google search could arm you with more understanding of Big Bang cosmology than you've displayed so far.

You are constantly surrounded by the results of scientific inquiry, you know, the stuff you say is a fairy tale, but you are too ignorant to understand that they all represent the fruits of centuries of diligent, public inquiry.

If you think that science and the scientific process is a "ferry tale"[sic] then do you believe that elves (or angels in your case) make the lights in your house come on? Or do you think that little angels are drawing the images and words on the computer screen in front of you? Or do you believe that God makes all of the airplanes in the world fly? Does a little man turn the light off in your refrigerator? Does the little Advil Cold and Sinus pill you take banish Satan's Cold Demons from your nasal cavities and is that why you experience relief from sinus congestion? The theories of Evolution and the so-called Big Bang model of cosmology have been arrived at through exactly the same scientific method which allows you to appear as Moron of the Year on The Raving Atheist Forums.

The real question is not "why are Christian tax dollars going to support the lie that is science", but rather, with all the tax dollars being spent on education, how did you wind up so fucking uninformed?

The funniest part about this is that, even as you're being mocked, none of the people responding to you are asking you to take their assertions on faith and that's far more respectful than what you're asking of us.
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Old 03-03-2005, 03:18 PM   #42
ocmpoma
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Glad you're working on getting the book. If you have any questions (about what is said in the book, mind you), feel free to ask them, and I will try to clarify. Keep in mind the timeline when you read it, too. Also, remember while reading it that the science is a little dated, the book originally came out in 1988.
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Old 03-03-2005, 03:26 PM   #43
Dux
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if your not going to bother convincing us otherwise, why the hell are you posting here?
So you're telling me someone will be convinced? I sincerely doubt that. Why I'm here? I like to jump in now and then when I think I can contribute to the debate. Sometimes I just don't see the point in repeating what so many has said before (I've spent a whole lot of reading these forums before i posted myself), and sometimes I think others will say it better.
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Old 03-03-2005, 05:16 PM   #44
Sir Sin-O-Lot
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I need the references you got these from. And what the hell makes Creationism so plausable if evolution is true?
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Old 03-03-2005, 07:33 PM   #45
chris26
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God doesn't want to show himself. He said clearly in the bible that the evidence for his handiwork is in the universe and the great complexity of the world we live in. We live in 4 dimensions, and there are 11. He exists outside the universe. Thats like searching for a penny inside a barn when the penny is outside. You ain't gonna find it no matter how hard you try. God does not want to make himself evident. A god that is almighty has no point in making himself evident except in his creation. God does not need to prove anything. He is not boastful or willing to take away our free will.

The bible says the greatest test of faith is the flesh.

Quote:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


(Romans 1:18-22, KJV)"
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I need the references you got these from. And what the hell makes Creationism so plausable if evolution is true?
Creationism? That is an old archaic term. I believe in the bible, evolution, old earth and the big bang. Science and Christianity have said to have been in conflict. Quite the opposite. The bible is not a scientific book. The point of the bible is salvation, not knowing the details. The details are not important, our soul is what matters in this temporary earth.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

Science and religion are not enemies of each other. Many parts of the bible are misinterpreted. The reason many scientists don't believe in the bible is because the interpretation was wrong to begin with and when it is interpreted correctly it agrees with science.

If you want to know how Christianity and Science can go in harmony read to your heart's content. This the greatest article I've came across online about this topic.

http://www.kiva.net/~kls/

The more I learn about science the stronger my faith becomes.
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