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Old 03-15-2006, 06:30 PM   #46
baconeatingatheistjew
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Phil, I have always said that we are all agnostics. We can't say for sure one god, or 50 gods exist. I can't even say for sure my pen isn't god.

However, I believe atheist do not allow for the possiblity that god exists. We don't shrug our shoulders as to whether god exists or not. I think MA does, by the sounds of it. When you say "who knows" you are agnostic only. When you say there is absolutely no proof that god has ever existed, so why believe there is a god, you are an atheist.
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Old 03-15-2006, 08:10 PM   #47
Mosslem_Atheist
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baconeatingatheistjew wrote
Phil, I have always said that we are all agnostics. We can't say for sure one god, or 50 gods exist. I can't even say for sure my pen isn't god.

However, I believe atheist do not allow for the possiblity that god exists. We don't shrug our shoulders as to whether god exists or not. I think MA does, by the sounds of it. When you say "who knows" you are agnostic only. When you say there is absolutely no proof that god has ever existed, so why believe there is a god, you are an atheist.
Thatís a major problem with atheism; its definition.

But let me start with my definition of atheism. I think of atheism as the philosophical position which argues that the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, critical god is irrational and therefore highly unlikely. In addition, there is no physical evidence of its existence.

But to get to a simpler definition of atheism, let me first define what I consider God to be. God is an omnipotent, omniscient, boundless, timeless entity that created all things sensed and unsensed. Humans are His ďspecialĒ creation because He gave them the power to choose and will judge them based on their choices. I call it the critical god, or God, for short.

Second, let me define theism. Theism is the belief in the existence of the aforementioned God.

Accordingly, atheism is the lack of belief in the existence of God.

The way I see it, you are an atheist if you do not believe in any of Godís attributes, simply because without having all those attributes simultaneously, God seizes to be God.

So, if you believe that your pencil is your god, then you are an atheist, because the pencil does not posess all of Godís attributes... well, none in this case.

And whether youíre indifferent, not sure, or donít see enough evidence to support either position, worship a different deity with lesser attributes, or outright deny the existence of anything supernatural, you are an atheist simply because all of these positions do not imply the belief in God.

The fact that I believe in the possibility of the existence of supernatural entity does not make me agnostic. I simply rule out the possibility of a god so powerful and gracious, and yet so petty. But is it possible that there is a creator to the universe? Sure. But it doesnít mean that God exists and doesnít mean I believe in a creator of the universe, even though I cannot rule out the possiblity entirely.

A supernatural entity and God are two entirely different beasts. Ruling out the existence of God is straight forward. Ruling out a creator of the universe (which kinda has to be supernatural) is not. There is no evidence of it, but itís not illogical, especially as compared to the concept of God.

Peace.
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Old 03-15-2006, 08:10 PM   #48
Mosslem_Atheist
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baconeatingatheistjew wrote
Phil, I have always said that we are all agnostics. We can't say for sure one god, or 50 gods exist. I can't even say for sure my pen isn't god.

However, I believe atheist do not allow for the possiblity that god exists. We don't shrug our shoulders as to whether god exists or not. I think MA does, by the sounds of it. When you say "who knows" you are agnostic only. When you say there is absolutely no proof that god has ever existed, so why believe there is a god, you are an atheist.
Thatís a major problem with atheism; its definition.

But let me start with my definition of atheism. I think of atheism as the philosophical position which argues that the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, critical god is irrational and therefore highly unlikely. In addition, there is no physical evidence of its existence.

But to get to a simpler definition of atheism, let me first define what I consider God to be. God is an omnipotent, omniscient, boundless, timeless entity that created all things sensed and unsensed. Humans are His ďspecialĒ creation because He gave them the power to choose and will judge them based on their choices. I call it the critical god, or God, for short.

Second, let me define theism. Theism is the belief in the existence of the aforementioned God.

Accordingly, atheism is the lack of belief in the existence of God.

The way I see it, you are an atheist if you do not believe in any of Godís attributes, simply because without having all those attributes simultaneously, God seizes to be God.

So, if you believe that your pencil is your god, then you are an atheist, because the pencil does not posess all of Godís attributes... well, none in this case.

And whether youíre indifferent, not sure, or donít see enough evidence to support either position, worship a different deity with lesser attributes, or outright deny the existence of anything supernatural, you are an atheist simply because all of these positions do not imply the belief in God.

The fact that I believe in the possibility of the existence of supernatural entity does not make me agnostic. I simply rule out the possibility of a god so powerful and gracious, and yet so petty. But is it possible that there is a creator to the universe? Sure. But it doesnít mean that God exists and doesnít mean I believe in a creator of the universe, even though I cannot rule out the possiblity entirely.

A supernatural entity and God are two entirely different beasts. Ruling out the existence of God is straight forward. Ruling out a creator of the universe (which kinda has to be supernatural) is not. There is no evidence of it, but itís not illogical, especially as compared to the concept of God.

Peace.
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Old 03-15-2006, 08:21 PM   #49
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baconeatingatheistjew wrote
MA, you sort of sound like an Agnostic. You don't rule out the supernatural. That is a lot different than what an Atheist does. I can see an Agnostic not having to believe in evolution. But if an Atheist, someone who does not give the supernatural consideration, has to come up with an answer to whether man appeared on earth first as a man, I can't see him/her saying I don't know.

I've heard that a Moslim isn't born a Moslim for another Moslim. But aside from that, if one is born a Moslim, than you can be a Moslim for life, if you are correct about the father thingy. Are there different interpretations?

Phil, is believing in evolution a choice? Don't atheists have a choice to be agnostics?
Well, Islam is a one-way ticket. Once a Moslem always a Moslem or be killed and condemned for eternity. So, even if you're born to Moslem parents and don't have a choice as to what religion to follow, you're stuck.

And there are no different interpretations to the father thingy, to the best of my knowledge.

Peace.
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Old 03-15-2006, 08:21 PM   #50
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baconeatingatheistjew wrote
MA, you sort of sound like an Agnostic. You don't rule out the supernatural. That is a lot different than what an Atheist does. I can see an Agnostic not having to believe in evolution. But if an Atheist, someone who does not give the supernatural consideration, has to come up with an answer to whether man appeared on earth first as a man, I can't see him/her saying I don't know.

I've heard that a Moslim isn't born a Moslim for another Moslim. But aside from that, if one is born a Moslim, than you can be a Moslim for life, if you are correct about the father thingy. Are there different interpretations?

Phil, is believing in evolution a choice? Don't atheists have a choice to be agnostics?
Well, Islam is a one-way ticket. Once a Moslem always a Moslem or be killed and condemned for eternity. So, even if you're born to Moslem parents and don't have a choice as to what religion to follow, you're stuck.

And there are no different interpretations to the father thingy, to the best of my knowledge.

Peace.
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Old 03-15-2006, 09:30 PM   #51
Rhinoqulous
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Quote:
Mosslem_Atheist wrote
Quote:
baconeatingatheistjew wrote
Phil, I have always said that we are all agnostics. We can't say for sure one god, or 50 gods exist. I can't even say for sure my pen isn't god.

However, I believe atheist do not allow for the possiblity that god exists. We don't shrug our shoulders as to whether god exists or not. I think MA does, by the sounds of it. When you say "who knows" you are agnostic only. When you say there is absolutely no proof that god has ever existed, so why believe there is a god, you are an atheist.
Thatís a major problem with atheism; its definition.

But let me start with my definition of atheism. I think of atheism as the philosophical position which argues that the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, critical god is irrational and therefore highly unlikely. In addition, there is no physical evidence of its existence.

But to get to a simpler definition of atheism, let me first define what I consider God to be. God is an omnipotent, omniscient, boundless, timeless entity that created all things sensed and unsensed. Humans are His ďspecialĒ creation because He gave them the power to choose and will judge them based on their choices. I call it the critical god, or God, for short.

Second, let me define theism. Theism is the belief in the existence of the aforementioned God.

Accordingly, atheism is the lack of belief in the existence of God.

The way I see it, you are an atheist if you do not believe in any of Godís attributes, simply because without having all those attributes simultaneously, God seizes to be God.

So, if you believe that your pencil is your god, then you are an atheist, because the pencil does not posess all of Godís attributes... well, none in this case.

And whether youíre indifferent, not sure, or donít see enough evidence to support either position, worship a different deity with lesser attributes, or outright deny the existence of anything supernatural, you are an atheist simply because all of these positions do not imply the belief in God.

The fact that I believe in the possibility of the existence of supernatural entity does not make me agnostic. I simply rule out the possibility of a god so powerful and gracious, and yet so petty. But is it possible that there is a creator to the universe? Sure. But it doesnít mean that God exists and doesnít mean I believe in a creator of the universe, even though I cannot rule out the possiblity entirely.

A supernatural entity and God are two entirely different beasts. Ruling out the existence of God is straight forward. Ruling out a creator of the universe (which kinda has to be supernatural) is not. There is no evidence of it, but itís not illogical, especially as compared to the concept of God.

Peace.
So anyone not belonging to Judiasm, Christianity or Islam is an atheist? I'm sorry, that's just idiotic. A strong or weak atheistic position has nothing to do with a Hindu position. Or Buddhist, Jain, or Scientologist. Eww. You're claiming atheists are the same thing as Scientologists.

Wait just a minute-You expect me to believe-That all this misbehaving-Grew from one enchanted tree? And helpless to fight it-We should all be satisfied-With this magical explanation-For why the living die-And why it's hard to be a decent human being - David Bazan
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Old 03-15-2006, 09:30 PM   #52
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Mosslem_Atheist wrote
Quote:
baconeatingatheistjew wrote
Phil, I have always said that we are all agnostics. We can't say for sure one god, or 50 gods exist. I can't even say for sure my pen isn't god.

However, I believe atheist do not allow for the possiblity that god exists. We don't shrug our shoulders as to whether god exists or not. I think MA does, by the sounds of it. When you say "who knows" you are agnostic only. When you say there is absolutely no proof that god has ever existed, so why believe there is a god, you are an atheist.
Thatís a major problem with atheism; its definition.

But let me start with my definition of atheism. I think of atheism as the philosophical position which argues that the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, critical god is irrational and therefore highly unlikely. In addition, there is no physical evidence of its existence.

But to get to a simpler definition of atheism, let me first define what I consider God to be. God is an omnipotent, omniscient, boundless, timeless entity that created all things sensed and unsensed. Humans are His ďspecialĒ creation because He gave them the power to choose and will judge them based on their choices. I call it the critical god, or God, for short.

Second, let me define theism. Theism is the belief in the existence of the aforementioned God.

Accordingly, atheism is the lack of belief in the existence of God.

The way I see it, you are an atheist if you do not believe in any of Godís attributes, simply because without having all those attributes simultaneously, God seizes to be God.

So, if you believe that your pencil is your god, then you are an atheist, because the pencil does not posess all of Godís attributes... well, none in this case.

And whether youíre indifferent, not sure, or donít see enough evidence to support either position, worship a different deity with lesser attributes, or outright deny the existence of anything supernatural, you are an atheist simply because all of these positions do not imply the belief in God.

The fact that I believe in the possibility of the existence of supernatural entity does not make me agnostic. I simply rule out the possibility of a god so powerful and gracious, and yet so petty. But is it possible that there is a creator to the universe? Sure. But it doesnít mean that God exists and doesnít mean I believe in a creator of the universe, even though I cannot rule out the possiblity entirely.

A supernatural entity and God are two entirely different beasts. Ruling out the existence of God is straight forward. Ruling out a creator of the universe (which kinda has to be supernatural) is not. There is no evidence of it, but itís not illogical, especially as compared to the concept of God.

Peace.
So anyone not belonging to Judiasm, Christianity or Islam is an atheist? I'm sorry, that's just idiotic. A strong or weak atheistic position has nothing to do with a Hindu position. Or Buddhist, Jain, or Scientologist. Eww. You're claiming atheists are the same thing as Scientologists.

Wait just a minute-You expect me to believe-That all this misbehaving-Grew from one enchanted tree? And helpless to fight it-We should all be satisfied-With this magical explanation-For why the living die-And why it's hard to be a decent human being - David Bazan
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Old 03-15-2006, 09:45 PM   #53
calpurnpiso
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I think the problem is that the vast majority of people do not know what the word atheist means!! Let's take the word appart and study its etymology shall we?

From A= WITHOUT and THEOS=GOD/ BELIEF. IOW, atheism simply means:
* Absence of religious Belief.
* NO BELIEF IN GOD
* No belief in fairy tales or supernatural idiocies.
*WITHOUT SUPERNATURAL BELIEF
* Lack of Belief.
* lack of belief in a supernatural being.
* NO GOD.
* A rejection of belief in irrational concepts void of reason.
* A lack of belief in that which CAN NOT be proven using reason or the scientific method.

Christians and other folks infected with delusional beliefs think and reason like schizophrenics or temporal lobe epileptics. Their morality is dictated by an invisible friend called Jesus.
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Old 03-15-2006, 09:45 PM   #54
calpurnpiso
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I think the problem is that the vast majority of people do not know what the word atheist means!! Let's take the word appart and study its etymology shall we?

From A= WITHOUT and THEOS=GOD/ BELIEF. IOW, atheism simply means:
* Absence of religious Belief.
* NO BELIEF IN GOD
* No belief in fairy tales or supernatural idiocies.
*WITHOUT SUPERNATURAL BELIEF
* Lack of Belief.
* lack of belief in a supernatural being.
* NO GOD.
* A rejection of belief in irrational concepts void of reason.
* A lack of belief in that which CAN NOT be proven using reason or the scientific method.

Christians and other folks infected with delusional beliefs think and reason like schizophrenics or temporal lobe epileptics. Their morality is dictated by an invisible friend called Jesus.
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Old 03-15-2006, 09:52 PM   #55
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Philboid Studge wrote
BEAJ: Please reconfigure your notion of what agnostic means.

"Phil, is believing in evolution a choice?"

I suppose one could choose between competing theories, but there aren't any ...

"Don't atheists have a choice to be agnostics?"

Nope. We're all agnostics (including theists) ... I bet no one's ever heard me say that before! I've also typed my fingers into bloody stumps writing this: You can be both atheist and agnostic. I know I am. (No beliefs in god-concepts; can't prove [or know] their existence one way or the other.)
Phil, I agree with all your previous posts in this thread, except for this one. Whether or not you can actually prove the existence of God is one thing, believing it is another. In other words, an agnostic is someone who does not believe the evidence favors either position, regardless of the fact that he's right... or wrong. It is the belief that defines the position, not its validity.

If we use your approach, theists become atheists because they cannot prove their beliefs and atheists become theists because they cannot quite refute the claim of a God.

Peace.
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Old 03-15-2006, 09:52 PM   #56
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Philboid Studge wrote
BEAJ: Please reconfigure your notion of what agnostic means.

"Phil, is believing in evolution a choice?"

I suppose one could choose between competing theories, but there aren't any ...

"Don't atheists have a choice to be agnostics?"

Nope. We're all agnostics (including theists) ... I bet no one's ever heard me say that before! I've also typed my fingers into bloody stumps writing this: You can be both atheist and agnostic. I know I am. (No beliefs in god-concepts; can't prove [or know] their existence one way or the other.)
Phil, I agree with all your previous posts in this thread, except for this one. Whether or not you can actually prove the existence of God is one thing, believing it is another. In other words, an agnostic is someone who does not believe the evidence favors either position, regardless of the fact that he's right... or wrong. It is the belief that defines the position, not its validity.

If we use your approach, theists become atheists because they cannot prove their beliefs and atheists become theists because they cannot quite refute the claim of a God.

Peace.
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Old 03-15-2006, 10:08 PM   #57
calpurnpiso
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The etymology of Agnostic is: from A=WITHOUT, Gnosis=knowledge. IOW, no knoweldge.

Everytime one says: " I do not know" one becomes an agnostic. If one believes in something that one says: "I do not know anything about it."..then one is a retarded ignoramus, perhaps infected with religious-psychosis...:)

Christians and other folks infected with delusional beliefs think and reason like schizophrenics or temporal lobe epileptics. Their morality is dictated by an invisible friend called Jesus.
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Old 03-15-2006, 10:08 PM   #58
calpurnpiso
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The etymology of Agnostic is: from A=WITHOUT, Gnosis=knowledge. IOW, no knoweldge.

Everytime one says: " I do not know" one becomes an agnostic. If one believes in something that one says: "I do not know anything about it."..then one is a retarded ignoramus, perhaps infected with religious-psychosis...:)

Christians and other folks infected with delusional beliefs think and reason like schizophrenics or temporal lobe epileptics. Their morality is dictated by an invisible friend called Jesus.
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Old 03-15-2006, 10:17 PM   #59
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So anyone not belonging to Judiasm, Christianity or Islam is an atheist? I'm sorry, that's just idiotic. A strong or weak atheistic position has nothing to do with a Hindu position. Or Buddhist, Jain, or Scientologist. Eww. You're claiming atheists are the same thing as Scientologists.
All Scientologists are atheists, but not all atheists are Scientologists. Hindus and Buddhists are also atheists, although passive (weak, negative) atheists, yes, of course.

Ironically, Satanics are not atheists, since they worship the devil, which means they believe God exists.

Peace.
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Old 03-15-2006, 10:17 PM   #60
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Rhinoqulous wrote
So anyone not belonging to Judiasm, Christianity or Islam is an atheist? I'm sorry, that's just idiotic. A strong or weak atheistic position has nothing to do with a Hindu position. Or Buddhist, Jain, or Scientologist. Eww. You're claiming atheists are the same thing as Scientologists.
All Scientologists are atheists, but not all atheists are Scientologists. Hindus and Buddhists are also atheists, although passive (weak, negative) atheists, yes, of course.

Ironically, Satanics are not atheists, since they worship the devil, which means they believe God exists.

Peace.
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