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Old 05-31-2007, 11:58 AM   #91
Lily
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Isn't this the "But mom! All the other kids do it" excuse? It is obviously possible that no actual honest discussion is wanted here. But at least recognize that fact and own up to it.
Quite a few of the other theists seem to get plenty of actual honest discussion here and I seem to remember you taking part in a few yourself.
Things have changed as fewer and fewer of the former members post here any more. Unfortunately, they were some of the smartest and nicest people you had here-- I am thinking of people like Noah and Schemanista, just to name a couple. As the forum has gotten smaller, it has gotten clubbier (naturally) and has gotten really nasty-- to the point that you drive away all but the most intrepid. There used to be some really good discussions here. Not anymore.

I still drop in because I am constitutionally unable to allow so much garbage to go unrebuked, particularly when I know that the people spewing it are smart enough to learn. Whether they are honest enough too, particularly in this environment, is a question that I think has been answered, negatively, here in this particular thread.

Edited to correct typo.
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Old 05-31-2007, 11:58 AM   #92
Irreligious
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Lily wrote
Isn't this the "But mom! All the other kids do it" excuse? It is obviously possible that no actual honest discussion is wanted here. But at least recognize that fact and own up to it
I would love nothing more than to have honest discussion between us. Unfortunately, I think we have different criteria for what constitutes such. I'm not being sarcastic; I am sincere.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
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Old 05-31-2007, 11:58 AM   #93
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So, back to the original post and point by Mog. OK, so humans actually get pleasure from doing good. Wow, what a revelation. And water is wet.
Come now, SteveG! Strawmen don't become you! I think Mog's original point was that the research might be showing (yet again) that free will is a frigging illusion. That's not a wee bit disconcerting to Christophile theologians?
What strawman? Did he or did he not say that this is something that would scare theologians? How am I misrepresenting him?

As to this being disconcerting I don't know what to say. It's not disconcerting to me. Every other thoughtful Catholic I know whose bothered to comment on it hasn't been disconcerted.

I'll say what I said again, that we have parts of our brain that act this way is not the least bit surprising, but rather expected. I'd actually be surprised if this wasn't the case.

And all the research says is that the brain is wired to take pleasure in such acts. How that damages the case for free will is utterly lost on me.

In truth, there are only two kinds of people; those who accept dogma and know it, and those who accept dogma and don't know it.
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:00 PM   #94
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Isn't this the "But mom! All the other kids do it" excuse? It is obviously possible that no actual honest discussion is wanted here. But at least recognize that fact and own up to it
I would love nothing more than to have honest discussion between us. Unfortunately, I think we have different criteria for what constitutes such. I'm not being sarcastic; I am sincere.
You are welcome to email me. No serious discussion here would be permitted to go forward and I would love to be able to talk to you as though we were real people.
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:01 PM   #95
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And Ol' G is responsible for it all (Well, except for the bad stuff; that's the devil and willful humans' fault for bringing things like cancer, genocide and tsunamis on themselves). Glad we cleared all that up.
hmmm... but Lily is the one who is condescending.
Can you actually read your own post that he is responding to?
Fair enough. Apology extended to anyone offended by that.

In truth, there are only two kinds of people; those who accept dogma and know it, and those who accept dogma and don't know it.
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:01 PM   #96
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Steve, is that ultraman on your avitar?
:D
http://www.ultracolony.com/images/thai/mili.gif
good pick up!
Super sweet! One can never have too much Ultraman :cheers:
:cheers:

In truth, there are only two kinds of people; those who accept dogma and know it, and those who accept dogma and don't know it.
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:02 PM   #97
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Irr, are they like souvenirs or something? I have a mannequin head at home but I use it as a hat rack not for healing. Perhaps Iíve been underutilizing it this whole time.
What kind of souvenir is a severed mannequin limb? What's it got to do with anything?

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:04 PM   #98
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own up to it.
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
Lily,
You are the last person who should be lecturing people on owning up to things.
Second to last. You are the last.

http://ravingatheists.com/forum/view...233059#p233059
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:04 PM   #99
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steveg, is it also superstitious to wear scapularies, to light candles to saints and virgins, to kneel in front of crosses or images of saints and kiss their feet or to wear (like a friend of mine did) a silver "eye of saint cecilia" in a chain around his neck because he had an accident and damaged one of his eyes and his mom prayed to that saint when he was recovering-but lost vsion in that eye? what about the bleeding statues, the still beating after 400 years heart of this saint or another, the blood of this other guy that is liquid after who knows how many centuries? the shroud of turin? (well, ok, not that one....)

One of the most irrational of all the conventions of modern society is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected....That they should have this immunity is an outrage. There is nothing in religious ideas, as a class, to lift them above other ideas. On the contrary, they are always dubious and often quite silly.
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:06 PM   #100
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Things have changed as fewer and fewer of the former members post here any more. Unfortunately, they were some of the smartest and nicest people you had here-- I am thinking of people like Noah and Schemanista, just to name a couple. As the formum has gotten smaller, it has gotten clubbier (naturally) and has gotten really nasty-- to the point that you drive away all but the most intrepid. There used to be some really good discussions here. Not anymore.

I still drop in because I am constitutionally unable to allow so much garbage to go unrebuked, particularly when I know that the people spewing it are smart enough to learn. Whether they are honest enough too, particularly in this environment, is a question that I think has been answered, negatively, here in this particular thread.
I cant speak to how things used to be as I've been frequenting this forum for less than a year but I've found in general that if you want to have a good discussion you have to pick a good topic and coming up with topics is the responsibility of everyone who frequents the forum.

I agree with Steve that a lot of the negativity stems from misunderstandings and everyone being a little jumpy. I suppose the only thing to be done about it is to ignore the posts that offend and respond to the posts that donít. Same as always
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:07 PM   #101
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So, back to the original post and point by Mog. OK, so humans actually get pleasure from doing good. Wow, what a revelation. And water is wet.
Come now, SteveG! Strawmen don't become you! I think Mog's original point was that the research might be showing (yet again) that free will is a frigging illusion. That's not a wee bit disconcerting to Christophile theologians?
What strawman? Did he or did he not say that this is something that would scare theologians? How am I misrepresenting him?

As to this being disconcerting I don't know what to say. It's not disconcerting to me. Every other thoughtful Catholic I know whose bothered to comment on it hasn't been disconcerted.

I'll say what I said again, that we have parts of our brain that act this way is not the least bit surprising, but rather expected. I'd actually be surprised if this wasn't the case.

And all the research says is that the brain is wired to take pleasure in such acts. How that damages the case for free will is utterly lost on me.
I think you are misrepresenting him -- at least re his original post -- because he's NOT saying that because "humans actually get pleasure from doing good" it will scare theologians. He is saying (I think) that humans don't actually "choose" to be good, therefore free will is for suckers. I don't know how to further explain the implications of a wired -- programmed? -- brain damaging the case for free willy; I think you know exactly how it would, if true, though.

You should probably take it up with Mog ...

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Old 05-31-2007, 12:12 PM   #102
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Irr, are they like souvenirs or something? I have a mannequin head at home but I use it as a hat rack not for healing. Perhaps Iíve been underutilizing it this whole time.
What kind of souvenir is a severed mannequin limb? What's it got to do with anything?
I try not to question mannequin limbs I have a few in my house and though I make use of them as hat and jewelry racks Iím not really sure why they are there. I thought perhaps this might be the same sort of thing.

What is it called when they keep holy bones?
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:12 PM   #103
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Maybe I'm missing the point, but I will wade in with my questions anyway.

The way I see it, there are 2 points being made:
1. God does not make evil (is this a correct statement?), yet psychopaths are born physically different, and don't "choose" to be evil.

2. There is an urge to do good that is embedded in our brains, so it can be explained without a divine being. It sounds to me like Lily (do you agree?) that God is the one to put those urges for good in there, which sounds a lot like an ID-type of position to take.
SteveG,
I probably should have explicitly directed this at you, since I was looking for your input.

Does God make evil or not, according to mainstream Christianity?

Do you agree that God put the urge to do good into our brains?

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
George Bernard Shaw
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:14 PM   #104
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ossuary, irr...?

One of the most irrational of all the conventions of modern society is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected....That they should have this immunity is an outrage. There is nothing in religious ideas, as a class, to lift them above other ideas. On the contrary, they are always dubious and often quite silly.
H. L. Mencken
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:17 PM   #105
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ossuary, irr...?
Perhaps its a surrogate ossuary (thanks Eva that was the word I was looking for)
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