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Old 05-31-2007, 12:17 PM   #106
Irreligious
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Lily wrote
Isn't this the "But mom! All the other kids do it" excuse? It is obviously possible that no actual honest discussion is wanted here. But at least recognize that fact and own up to it
I would love nothing more than to have honest discussion between us. Unfortunately, I think we have different criteria for what constitutes such. I'm not being sarcastic; I am sincere.
You are welcome to email me. No serious discussion here would be permitted to go forward and I would love to be able to talk to you as though we were real people.
Thank you for your gracious offer, Lily. No offense, but it wouldn't solve a thing. We may be more civil to each other in private correspondence, but the crux of the issue between us is your faith in things unproven and my lack of credulity in such. That's what it all comes down to in the end. I have absolutely no problem with people of faith as long as they allow me the freedom to live apart from it.

It's a tricky proposition, though, because the perceptions of many of those who have faith in things unproven (and, as far as we know, unproveable) are such that they would, for instance, pass laws that prevent me from enjoying the freedoms that they take for granted, and in an ostensibly secular society, yet. Some I've met are insistent that I share their faith in things unproven, when, to me, the only important facet of what they believe is that it is unproven.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:17 PM   #107
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Just Us Chickens wrote
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Lily wrote
Isn't this the "But mom! All the other kids do it" excuse? It is obviously possible that no actual honest discussion is wanted here. But at least recognize that fact and own up to it.
Quite a few of the other theists seem to get plenty of actual honest discussion here and I seem to remember you taking part in a few yourself.
JUC. I have to be honest...it is exceedingly difficult. It takes every ounce of good will I have most times to not lash out. I have to mostly ignore more than half the posts (go back and read RenMan's) in almost any thread I participate in (this one isn't so bad....yet).

And there are not quite a few theist here. There is barely a handful at best, and at least half of those are Lily and myself. And if you read threads that Thomas posts in, he gets his share of vitriol as well.

The level of hate, bitterness, condescension, and superiority that comes across here is nearly toxic.

I am regularly trotted out here as one of the theists who is respected, and I suppose that's true for some members. But I get, and have always gotten my share of what Lily gets. She chooses to fight back, I choose mostly to ignore it (at least on screen). Which is wiser, I can't say.

If I am respected, it's only because I've deleted more posts than I can count that would have made it otherwise.

In truth, there are only two kinds of people; those who accept dogma and know it, and those who accept dogma and don't know it.
G.K. Chesterton
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:21 PM   #108
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SteveG wrote
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Just Us Chickens wrote
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Lily wrote
Isn't this the "But mom! All the other kids do it" excuse? It is obviously possible that no actual honest discussion is wanted here. But at least recognize that fact and own up to it.
Quite a few of the other theists seem to get plenty of actual honest discussion here and I seem to remember you taking part in a few yourself.
JUC. I have to be honest...it is exceedingly difficult. It takes every ounce of good will I have most times to not lash out. I have to mostly ignore more than half the posts (go back and read RenMan's) in almost any thread I participate in (this one isn't so bad....yet).

And there are not quite a few theist here. There is barely a handful at best, and at least half of those are Lily and myself. And if you read threads that Thomas posts in, he gets his share of vitriol as well.

The level of hate, bitterness, condescension, and superiority that comes across here is nearly toxic.

I am regularly trotted out here as one of the theists who is respected, and I suppose that's true for some members. But I get, and have always gotten my share of what Lily gets. She chooses to fight back, I choose mostly to ignore it (at least on screen). Which is wiser, I can't say.

If I am respected, it's only because I've deleted more posts than I can count that would have made it otherwise.
Two things come instantly to mind when reading this:

1.) Rare is the occasion where Lily fights "back."
2.) Then why the fuck are you here?*






*I mean that, of course, with no disrespect. It's an honest question. :cheers:

I will grieve. Grief is not a theistic concept. ~ Sternwallow
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:21 PM   #109
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ossuary, irr...?
Perhaps its a surrogate ossuary (thanks Eva that was the word I was looking for)
SORRY! i thought irr posted the question, and it was you! apologize......but glad to be of help...

One of the most irrational of all the conventions of modern society is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected....That they should have this immunity is an outrage. There is nothing in religious ideas, as a class, to lift them above other ideas. On the contrary, they are always dubious and often quite silly.
H. L. Mencken
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:22 PM   #110
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Irr, are they like souvenirs or something? I have a mannequin head at home but I use it as a hat rack not for healing. Perhaps Iíve been underutilizing it this whole time.
What kind of souvenir is a severed mannequin limb? What's it got to do with anything?
I try not to question mannequin limbs I have a few in my house and though I make use of them as hat and jewelry racks Iím not really sure why they are there. I thought perhaps this might be the same sort of thing.

What is it called when they keep holy bones?
I think you are thinking of relics

In truth, there are only two kinds of people; those who accept dogma and know it, and those who accept dogma and don't know it.
G.K. Chesterton
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:28 PM   #111
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Quite a few of the other theists seem to get plenty of actual honest discussion here and I seem to remember you taking part in a few yourself.
JUC. I have to be honest...it is exceedingly difficult. It takes every ounce of good will I have most times to not lash out. I have to mostly ignore more than half the posts (go back and read RenMan's) in almost any thread I participate in (this one isn't so bad....yet).

And there are not quite a few theist here. There is barely a handful at best, and at least half of those are Lily and myself. And if you read threads that Thomas posts in, he gets his share of vitriol as well.

The level of hate, bitterness, condescension, and superiority that comes across here is nearly toxic.

I am regularly trotted out here as one of the theists who is respected, and I suppose that's true for some members. But I get, and have always gotten my share of what Lily gets. She chooses to fight back, I choose mostly to ignore it (at least on screen). Which is wiser, I can't say.

If I am respected, it's only because I've deleted more posts than I can count that would have made it otherwise.
Two things come instantly to mind when reading this:

1.) Rare is the occasion where Lily fights "back."
2.) Then why the fuck are you here?*






*I mean that, of course, with no disrespect. It's an honest question. :cheers:
Oh please. I fight back all the time. But I am one voice against the 10-12 regulars who can be counted on to heap vitriol, twist what I say and then *demand* that I justify what I just said (didn't say). I bail out of the discussion when I can no longer make any sense out of the insults, loaded questions, etc. Enough is enough.

Steve's way is wiser and he knows it, as do I. But I am half Irish and half Italian. I come from a long line of South Philly thugs. i.e. my brain is hard-wired to fight and I am helpless to do otherwise. I don't have any free will, remember?
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:30 PM   #112
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You rarely fight "back."
You often pick the fight.

I will grieve. Grief is not a theistic concept. ~ Sternwallow
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:30 PM   #113
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You rarely fight "back."
You often pick the fight.
For instance?
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:32 PM   #114
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like this one?

One of the most irrational of all the conventions of modern society is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected....That they should have this immunity is an outrage. There is nothing in religious ideas, as a class, to lift them above other ideas. On the contrary, they are always dubious and often quite silly.
H. L. Mencken
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:33 PM   #115
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I've seen actual relics at churches in Lisbon and in Mexico City (and locally, in my adopted hometown, when one is brought in for display and veneration). It's usually a finger or some such thing in a bejeweled case. No, these things at Fatima were life-sized (white people flesh- colored) mannequin limbs individually wrapped in plastic bags, as I recall. My ex was the one who told me what they were for. However, when I have time, I'll do a Web search to find out what is the real deal with these curious artifacts.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:35 PM   #116
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"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:37 PM   #117
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You rarely fight "back."
You often pick the fight.
For instance?
Virtually every post.

I will grieve. Grief is not a theistic concept. ~ Sternwallow
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:44 PM   #118
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Two things come instantly to mind when reading this:

1.) Rare is the occasion where Lily fights "back."
I'll let Lily take that one.

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T2.) Then why the fuck are you here?*
It's a good question, and the answer is that I mostly am not.

I rarely participate in the forum any longer.

Since January, I have posted in only two threads.

The first was the thread about marriage, and I posted because I hated seeing Joni being offered such a negative view of marriage and wanted to give a different take.

Today, I posted because I become disgusted for about the hundredth time at the treatment Lily gets.

As to why I read, it's because I suppose old habits die hard. I spent more than a year and a half here posting, trying to honestly answer question, and I suppose I feel that a little part of me is invested here. That's honestly been really hard to totally let go of.

In truth, there are only two kinds of people; those who accept dogma and know it, and those who accept dogma and don't know it.
G.K. Chesterton
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:44 PM   #119
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I think you are misrepresenting him -- at least re his original post -- because he's NOT saying that because "humans actually get pleasure from doing good" it will scare theologians. He is saying (I think) that humans don't actually "choose" to be good, therefore free will is for suckers. I don't know how to further explain the implications of a wired -- programmed? -- brain damaging the case for free willy; I think you know exactly how it would, if true, though.

You should probably take it up with Mog ...
Its also the fact that not everyone has their brains (Psychopaths) wired this way. Not only are they not altruistic, but they feel no negative feelings for the evil that they do. They have as much chance to get to heaven as a camel has of going through an eye of the needle, and its not entirely their fault because they were created this way at birth. I could be wrong, but is Christianity based on the premise that everyone has a fair chance to get to heaven or not?

"It's puzzling that Eden is synonymous with paradise when, if you think about it at all, it's more like a maximum-security prison with twenty-four hour surveillance." -Ann Druyan
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:46 PM   #120
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like this one?
To defend Lily, Eva. I actually called her out on this thread.

"It's puzzling that Eden is synonymous with paradise when, if you think about it at all, it's more like a maximum-security prison with twenty-four hour surveillance." -Ann Druyan
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