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Old 06-01-2007, 07:23 AM   #166
nkb
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Irreligious,
Are you sure they were fake limbs?

Edit: Incidentally, my in-laws are going on a cruise in Europe, and one of the stops is Lisbon. However, they are wasting their only day there by getting onto a bus to travel to Fatima. I didn't have the heart to tell them what a waste of time that will be, when they should be checking out beautiful Lisbon.

My mother-in-law is a practicing Catholic, so I kept my mouth shut. My father-in-law, who is a non-practicing Protestant, will be miserable.

I will ask them to keep an eye out for these limbs, and report back.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
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Old 06-01-2007, 08:37 AM   #167
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Edit: Incidentally, my in-laws are going on a cruise in Europe, and one of the stops is Lisbon. However, they are wasting their only day there by getting onto a bus to travel to Fatima.
AARRRGGHHHHH!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:


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Old 06-01-2007, 09:12 AM   #168
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Thanks for those additional finds, RenaissanceMan! It has been about a decade since I saw those wax body parts in Fatima. I remember seeing arms, legs and feet suspended from the ceiling of one of those kiosks. And, as I said earlier, they were "life-size," but that could be faulty memory on my part.

So the superstitious burn these wax body parts in hopes for a cure for whatever ails them? Sort of an appeasement to their god. I wonder if this practice is endorsed by the Vatican?

And nkb, Fatima was not nearly as beautiful as Guadalupe, so your inlaws would be wasting their time there. The actual shrine at Fatima is nothing more than a fancy bus shelter, in my opinion.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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Old 06-01-2007, 09:30 AM   #169
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I might as well elaborate on this. I find the "mysterious ways" god and the "interventionist" god inherently contradictory.
I think it all boils down to explaining evil in the world. Whenever something good happens by chance it's god's intentional doing. Whenever something evil happens by chance it's either man's fault or part of god's "mysterious" doings.

Of course all this could be avoided if Christians would just admit that god does evil (as well as good). Speaking theologically, if there is any blasphemy to be had it should be in believing in a god that does not exist. There is nothing in nature (or in the bible) that says that god is wholly good. But, instead of looking at reality and believing in the god that actually exists (both good and evil, or in the case of nature, indifferent) they choose to believe in a fictional god that only does good things.

A belief in one god means you must believe a god that does both good and evil. It's a consequence of monotheism. It's only if you believe in multiple gods that you can contemplate having a wholly good god.

Religion - it gives people hope in a world torn apart by religion.
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Old 06-01-2007, 09:35 AM   #170
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I might as well elaborate on this. I find the "mysterious ways" god and the "interventionist" god inherently contradictory.
I think it all boils down to explaining evil in the world. Whenever something good happens by chance it's god's intentional doing. Whenever something evil happens by chance it's either man's fault or part of god's "mysterious" doings.

Of course all this could be avoided if Christians would just admit that god does evil (as well as good). Speaking theologically, if there is any blasphemy to be had it should be in believing in a god that does not exist. There is nothing in nature (or in the bible) that says that god is wholly good. But, instead of looking at reality and believing in the god that actually exists (both good and evil, or in the case of nature, indifferent) they choose to believe in a fictional god that only does good things.

A belief in one god means you must believe a god that does both good and evil. It's a consequence of monotheism. It's only if you believe in multiple gods that you can contemplate having a wholly good god.
I thought they had an evil god named satan, that was just not as powerful as the regular god.
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Old 06-01-2007, 10:21 AM   #171
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Quote:
snap crafter wrote
Quote:
Demigod79 wrote
Quote:
Mog wrote
I might as well elaborate on this. I find the "mysterious ways" god and the "interventionist" god inherently contradictory.
I think it all boils down to explaining evil in the world. Whenever something good happens by chance it's god's intentional doing. Whenever something evil happens by chance it's either man's fault or part of god's "mysterious" doings.

Of course all this could be avoided if Christians would just admit that god does evil (as well as good). Speaking theologically, if there is any blasphemy to be had it should be in believing in a god that does not exist. There is nothing in nature (or in the bible) that says that god is wholly good. But, instead of looking at reality and believing in the god that actually exists (both good and evil, or in the case of nature, indifferent) they choose to believe in a fictional god that only does good things.

A belief in one god means you must believe a god that does both good and evil. It's a consequence of monotheism. It's only if you believe in multiple gods that you can contemplate having a wholly good god.
I thought they had an evil god named satan, that was just not as powerful as the regular god.
But he must be at least as powerful as God, otherwise, why does he still exist, while thumbing his nose at Yahweh?
I bet he has some of those iron chariots!

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
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Old 06-01-2007, 10:30 AM   #172
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Irreligious wrote
And nkb, Fatima was not nearly as beautiful as Guadalupe, so your inlaws would be wasting their time there. The actual shrine at Fatima is nothing more than a fancy bus shelter, in my opinion.
My mom took us there when we were in Portugal a long time ago (I was a wee lad). I don't remember much, except that it was a big letdown.

I'm still trying to decide if I should tip off my father-in-law, so that he can bow out of the day trip, but I think that would just be asking for trouble. I think I'll stay out of it.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
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Old 06-01-2007, 10:39 AM   #173
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Isn't this the "But mom! All the other kids do it" excuse? It is obviously possible that no actual honest discussion is wanted here. But at least recognize that fact and own up to it.
Quite a few of the other theists seem to get plenty of actual honest discussion here and I seem to remember you taking part in a few yourself.
JUC. I have to be honest...it is exceedingly difficult. It takes every ounce of good will I have most times to not lash out. I have to mostly ignore more than half the posts (go back and read RenMan's) in almost any thread I participate in (this one isn't so bad....yet).

And there are not quite a few theist here. There is barely a handful at best, and at least half of those are Lily and myself. And if you read threads that Thomas posts in, he gets his share of vitriol as well.

The level of hate, bitterness, condescension, and superiority that comes across here is nearly toxic.

I am regularly trotted out here as one of the theists who is respected, and I suppose that's true for some members. But I get, and have always gotten my share of what Lily gets. She chooses to fight back, I choose mostly to ignore it (at least on screen). Which is wiser, I can't say.

If I am respected, it's only because I've deleted more posts than I can count that would have made it otherwise.
Oh horseshit. We have the means to conduct a civil discussion here -- it's called a moderated thread. Both you and Lily have declined to participate in such. That's fine -- but please don't then whine about the tone of the unmoderated threads.

As for "hate, bitterness, condescension, and superiority", well suck on it. God-worship has been and continues to be the source of much human misery, whether it's whacking Canaanites, herding up Jews, flying airplanes into buildings, or showering the Middle East in monkey blood. And while you and perhaps most Jeetards are wholly innocent or ignorant of the connection between god-belief and reigning terror on infidels, you are an unwitting participant -- every time you drop a coin in the collection plate or come in here and defend the faith.

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Old 06-01-2007, 10:58 AM   #174
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Too fucking right Phil. The seemingly harmless religiosity of the masses of sheeple is in fact the driving force behind the paradigm of God and the social exceptions made for those who purport to serve him. Without that "base" there would be no way for the extremists to thrive, and there would be no pools from which to recruit them. There is a rift between believers and unbelievers that is rarely crossed (and usually when it is it is away from god), but between the tea drinking, bake-sale attending "harmless" theists and the death dealing gun toting fundamentalists there is only a small seperation of perspective, tempered by the difficulty of life and the insanity of trusted "teachers".

Mr G says we think we are superior and are condescending. Do we think that the majesty of reality, the incredible beauty of nature and the unimaginable scale of the universe was made by an all powerful being who also talks to us and is very concerned with what we think and what we do with our genitals? That is beyond ordinary arrogance, that is god-like arrogance.

You can always turn tricks for a few extra bucks. If looks are an issue, there's the glory hole option, but don't expect more than ... tips.
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Old 06-01-2007, 03:58 PM   #175
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nkb wrote
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snap crafter wrote
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Demigod79 wrote
I think it all boils down to explaining evil in the world. Whenever something good happens by chance it's god's intentional doing. Whenever something evil happens by chance it's either man's fault or part of god's "mysterious" doings.

Of course all this could be avoided if Christians would just admit that god does evil (as well as good). Speaking theologically, if there is any blasphemy to be had it should be in believing in a god that does not exist. There is nothing in nature (or in the bible) that says that god is wholly good. But, instead of looking at reality and believing in the god that actually exists (both good and evil, or in the case of nature, indifferent) they choose to believe in a fictional god that only does good things.

A belief in one god means you must believe a god that does both good and evil. It's a consequence of monotheism. It's only if you believe in multiple gods that you can contemplate having a wholly good god.
I thought they had an evil god named satan, that was just not as powerful as the regular god.
But he must be at least as powerful as God, otherwise, why does he still exist, while thumbing his nose at Yahweh?
I bet he has some of those iron chariots!
Ah Satan, he's quite a character. Sometimes he's god's arch-rival, other times his closest subordinate. Gotta wonder why Christians hijacked Satan and made him evil. In the old testament he's simply a trickster god, first tempting Eve and then tormenting Job (at least one of them instigated by god).

I've always wondered why god gets so insanely jealous of other gods in the old testament. Afterall, if there is only one god then how can he get jealous at all? What, was he jealous of the rocks and stones that people bowed down and sacrificed to? If my gf ran away with a rock I'd think she was stupid, but I wouldn't be jealous of the rock. I think the very idea that god gets so jealous indicates the existence of multiple gods. Of course it's more likely it was to get the Israelites to stop worshipping the gods of their fathers and embrace monotheism.

Religion - it gives people hope in a world torn apart by religion.
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Old 06-01-2007, 04:10 PM   #176
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I've always wondered why god gets so insanely jealous of other gods in the old testament. Afterall, if there is only one god then how can he get jealous at all? What, was he jealous of the rocks and stones that people bowed down and sacrificed to? If my gf ran away with a rock I'd think she was stupid, but I wouldn't be jealous of the rock. I think the very idea that god gets so jealous indicates the existence of multiple gods. Of course it's more likely it was to get the Israelites to stop worshipping the gods of their fathers and embrace monotheism.
The ten commandments doesn't explicitly say that there are no other gods, just that you should not worship any other gods before the one god. I remember reading this sci fi story by Frederik Pohl about a 20th century Roman Empire where Jesus never got placed on the Cross, therefore Christianity never happened. The Jews lived for the most part peacefully with the Romans, accepting the existence of the Roman gods but not worshiping them above their Yahweh. (This wasn't the focus of the story, just the background.)

Checked the wikipedia under Pohl, I think the story was "Waiting for the Olympians" which was published in the October 1988 Asimov's Magazine, and is in Pohl's latest Short story collection.

"It's puzzling that Eden is synonymous with paradise when, if you think about it at all, it's more like a maximum-security prison with twenty-four hour surveillance." -Ann Druyan
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Old 06-01-2007, 04:18 PM   #177
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I do, however, retract my insult to you. You aren't a fucking xian moron. You are a sad little assclown AND a fucking xian moron.
That's it! Let it out; let it all out. Lance that boil. Let the pus pour forth! It hurts at first but then? Relief! Ah, sweet relief.

Soon you will know the joy of being human, again. It is so hard to be a veritable whirlwind of rage-- all sound and fury signifying nothing.
Did the lilytards say something...? I wasn't paying attention.
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Old 06-01-2007, 08:02 PM   #178
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Mr G says we think we are superior and are condescending. Do we think that the majesty of reality, the incredible beauty of nature and the unimaginable scale of the universe was made by an all powerful being who also talks to us and is very concerned with what we think and what we do with our genitals? That is beyond ordinary arrogance, that is god-like arrogance.
I must agree. Ever since I have been reading this forum, I have wondered why some among us seem to think that Mr. G (or any other theist) is "not so bad." As far as I am concerned, theist=head-up-ass, no matter how polite said theist may be whist spewing his shite.

I can understand why so many people remain theists when they are raised as such and they just don't want to put any thought into whether or not their inherited mythology is true. But those who actually do put thought into the matter, only to conclude that their mythology is reality, must be either A) too fucking stupid to worry about, or B) more scared of the permanence of death than they are respectful of intellectual integrity. Either way, I say fuck 'em.

Reality is not a belief. We do not take it on faith, it confirms itself whenever we see physics, chemistry, biology etc. working as predicted by their various empirically obtained rules. - Sternwallow
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Old 06-01-2007, 08:29 PM   #179
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Spotted Steve G stating this back in page 3. Missed quite a bit of nonsense, when I was away for a few hours after starting this thread.

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...It's a paradox to be sure, that I readily admit, but reality is rife with paradoxes whether we are believer or non-believer.
The big question that Steve G should be asking, is are there any paradoxes that we confront as a non-believer that is resolved as a believer? If there aren't, this statement is what we can derisively deride as "rationalizing" the irrational.

Ah well, at least Steve G is willing to admit that his beliefs can be paradoxical. Try to get Lily to admit it.

"It's puzzling that Eden is synonymous with paradise when, if you think about it at all, it's more like a maximum-security prison with twenty-four hour surveillance." -Ann Druyan
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Old 06-02-2007, 03:56 AM   #180
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/27/AR2007052701056.html?hpid=topnews

This is the kind of thing I was trying to get at to Lily.

Quote:
The results were showing that when the volunteers placed the interests of others before their own, the generosity activated a primitive part of the brain that usually lights up in response to food or sex. Altruism, the experiment suggested, was not a superior moral faculty that suppresses basic selfish urges but rather was basic to the brain, hard-wired and pleasurable.

Their 2006 finding that unselfishness can feel good lends scientific support to the admonitions of spiritual leaders such as Saint Francis of Assisi, who said, "For it is in giving that we receive." But it is also a dramatic example of the way neuroscience has begun to elbow its way into discussions about morality and has opened up a new window on what it means to be good.
You can see why this is the kind of research that could scare theologians. We have traits that we attribute to free will more attributable to brain chemistry.
We better not let the theists find out about this research.

When they think that anything is pleasurable, especially something they actually dislike doing such as charity and altruism, they will drop it like a hot rock.

Where, then, will we get "charitable faith-based initiatives" when their self gratification is removed? Are all of the bell-ringing Santas going to disappear?

We will just have to rely on the previously underreported generosity of hedonistic atheists.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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