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Old 06-02-2007, 08:39 AM   #196
Sternwallow
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Irreligious wrote
Is nobody here going to define that cryptic phrase: Grace builds upon nature? Is this just a poetic way of saying "Godidit?"
I think it means that god works through natural mediums so finding natural explanations shouldn’t be surprising
That makes sense though it does make one wonder about all of those miracles, which must be contrary to nature or they wouldn't be miracles, then.

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Old 06-02-2007, 08:45 AM   #197
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Well, I know this is the Raving Atheists forum but raving about what doesn't actually exist, shaking your fist in the face of straw fundies ... isn't that mental illness? Mog?
Is it so unreasonable to fight against fraud, hoaxes, cons and gyps, especially ones that have so often been ugly, deadly and oppressive?

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Old 06-02-2007, 08:58 AM   #198
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I am not saying you are right or wrong in your assertion.
Either your god did it, or he didn't.
It depends on what you are asking.

If you are asking...

Do all things exists because of God, and therefore anything that occurs can be tied back to that fundamental principle? The answer is yes.

If on the other hand you are asking...

Did I just spill my coffee on myself because God specifically pushed it over with his finger? The answer is no.

You obviously will not agree, but the whole thing can be roughly summarized as something like...

God's will holds all things in existence and therefore is the ultimate cause for all our circumstance, AND we have the freedom to affect those circumstances as well.

...It's a paradox to be sure, that I readily admit, but reality is rife with paradoxes whether we are believer or non-believer.

Again, even if it leaves you unsatisfied and unconvinced, the article does a better job at explaining than I can.
I can and do read about what various churches think about things, but I am more interested in your particular take on them.

From your post above, if we found some physical/mechanical explanation for the origin and continued existence of everything in nature, would that spell the end of God's last refuge?

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
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Old 06-02-2007, 09:10 AM   #199
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Isn't there some serious question-buggering going on in this?:

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Thomas points out that the judgment that there is a conflict here results from confusion regarding the nature of creation and natural change. It is an error that I call the “Cosmogonical Fallacy.” Those who are worried about conflict between faith and reason on this issue fail to distinguish between cause in the sense of a natural change of some kind and cause in the sense of an ultimate bringing into being of something from no antecedent state whatsoever. “Creatio non est mutatio,” says Thomas, affirming that the act of creation is not some species of change. So, the Greek natural philosophers were quite correct: from nothing, nothing comes. By “comes” here is meant a change from one state to another and this requires some underlying material reality, some potentiality for the new state to come into being. This is because all change arises out of a pre-existing possibility for that change residing in something. Creation, on the other hand, is the radical causing of the whole existence of whatever exists. To be the complete cause of something’s existence is not the same as producing a change in something. It is not a taking of something and making it into something else, as if there were some primordial matter which God had to use to create the universe. Rather, creation is the result of the divine agency being totally responsible for the production, all at once and completely, of the whole of the universe, with all it entities and all its operations, from absolutely nothing pre-existing.
Strictly speaking, points out Thomas, the Creator does not create something out of nothing in the sense of taking some nothing and making something out of it. This is a conceptual mistake, for it treats nothing as a something. On the contrary, the Christian doctrine of creation ex nihilo claims that God made the universe without making it out of anything. In other words, anything left entirely to itself, completely separated from the cause of its existence, would not exist—it would be absolutely nothing. The ultimate cause of the existence of anything and everything is God who creates, not out of some nothing, but from nothing at all.
I'll give it this, though: it explains nothing. Heh heh.

(I like it when eggheads try to coin terms, but “Cosmogonical Fallacy” sounds like something Ghoulslime would have to treat with penicillin.)
Here we see a nice example of the speculative nature of the claims about what God is and what it may have done. The "creation" was not a single act occurring all at once, we now know. Further, there are small "creations" going on all the time. So the reasons that there is something rather than nothing are 1) nothing is unstable and collapses into something and 2) something is also unstable and can vanish into nothing. There is no elan vital holding animals together and there is none holding matter from disappearing. In short, God need not apply for the non-existent job of sustaining being.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
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Old 06-02-2007, 09:13 AM   #200
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uh....no, not quite right, but so close.:D
Damn! I thought I had it. Lily has been educating me you see, but it seems I am not a good student....
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z...6AL/dunce2.jpg

You haven't tried hard enough... This will hurt me more than it will you.

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z...6AL/dunce1.jpg
It'll hurt your standing as an educator more than his as a student.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
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Old 06-02-2007, 09:17 AM   #201
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Eva wrote
i have a severely retarded cousin. he used to operate at the leve of a 2 year old but i guess that was because he was never taken to any special schools, ever. this uncle and his wife were very catholic. after my aunt died, uncle took cousin to lourdes because he thought the virgin would cure my cousin if they went there. live, not via satellite like from puerto rico, you know.
nothing happened. my cousin was more than 40 years old at the time.
then he put him in a special school/home were in a matter of months he learned to do so many things he was moved to a group home with a supervisor. he can do many tasks already, like dressing himself, talking intelligibly and many manual tasks. he is happier than ever before and loves his community.
my uncle is not rich....but he regrets not having done the special schooling before...

one of life's bittersweet stories, trivialized by religion....
Your cousin was fortunate (one might even say blessed) not to have contracted a spectrum of diseases from the fetid water at Lourdes where 10,000 sick persons bathe daily.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
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Old 06-02-2007, 09:22 AM   #202
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Gnosital wrote
Nah, that homosexual thing is just an evil pleasure that some people choose to indulge in by their own free willy.
:lol::lol::lol:
I couldn't let that one go unappreciated. :thumbsup:

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Old 06-02-2007, 09:29 AM   #203
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R and All wrote
As far as I am concerned, theist=head-up-ass, no matter how polite said theist may be whist spewing his shite.

I can understand why so many people remain theists when they are raised as such and they just don't want to put any thought into whether or not their inherited mythology is true. But those who actually do put thought into the matter, only to conclude that their mythology is reality, must be either A) too fucking stupid to worry about, or B) more scared of the permanence of death than they are respectful of intellectual integrity. Either way, I say fuck 'em.
I see it in a slightly different way: so-called moderate theists are the assholes from which the fundamentalist turds appear.

But fuck them all indeed.

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Old 06-02-2007, 09:39 AM   #204
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I honestly don't get it. At times you seem to want to use almost anything you can get your hands on to bash religion. Please explain to me how this man's plight was trivialized by religion?
As I read it, they felt that the boy's condition was decreed by God at his birth. That could suggest that trying secular remedies would be useless or even contrary to God's plan. Having tested this hypothesis at Lourdes etc. and found it was not the case, tacit divine permission to seek non-religious methods was reasonable. The progress in a secular setting suggests that the original condidion at birth was, in fact, not "the will of God".
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What religious precept kept your aunt and uncle from doing the totally prudent thing and putting your cousin in that school from the beginning? What doctrine tells a parent to hope for a miracle but in the meantime not do anything else. I really want to know how this is religions fault.
Extreme examples might illustrate religion's fault-- the cases of JWs forbidding transfusions for their children even when doing so caused their death. The woman who drowned her children to protect them from temptation and sin.

It is a special case of the general doctrine that, for problem solving, prayer trumps informed action.
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In addition, can we ask how many of the people who work in that school do so because of their faith, because they want to help the least among us. And no, I am not saying those without faith can't so the same, but asking you to look at the whole picture here. Do those of faith who help the mentally handicapped get 'credit' for doing so, or is their faith trivializing him also.
Might as well assume that all of them do it out of faith and compassion. Their faith is not trivializing him, his practical improvement by other than theistic methods trivializes the religion in this situation.

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"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
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Old 06-02-2007, 09:41 AM   #205
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Do those of faith who help the mentally handicapped get 'credit' for doing so, or is their faith trivializing him also.
Isn't that what they call enlightened self interest?

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Old 06-02-2007, 09:43 AM   #206
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Sterny is on a roll! I'm riveted. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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Old 06-02-2007, 09:51 AM   #207
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Closer to reality is something like this..

1) Christians believe that all things exist because of God.
2) Over time, science explains the mechanisms by which this existence operates.
3) Christian thinkers affirm this and find it totally unsurprising. Things like those referenced in Mog's original post are totally in keeping with what our understanding already was and has been for more than 500 years. It's interesting at the least, possibly very beneficial to humanity at best. Great to hear!
So the notion of man being created "in God's image" wasn't taken to mean his physical image before Darwin?
No, it was not. That God was not a bearded dude in the sky who we 'look' like is at least as old as Christianity (actually much older).
I again wonder why, then, God is so specifically described:

"Rev. 1:
[13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
[14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
[15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters."

This is somewhat contrary to the earlier claims that no one can see God or hear his full voice and live. It is also contrary to concocted notions that God is invisible.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
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Old 06-02-2007, 09:54 AM   #208
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OK, so humans actually get pleasure from doing good. Wow, what a revelation. And water is wet.
And Ol' G is responsible for it all (Well, except for the bad stuff; that's the devil and willful humans' fault for bringing things like cancer, genocide and tsunamis on themselves). Glad we cleared all that up.
hmmm... but Lily is the one who is condescending.
It is so satisfying to be condescending toward God who cannot possibly be insulted or harmed.

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Old 06-02-2007, 09:58 AM   #209
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SteveG, what is the purpose of selling mannequin limbs at Our Lady of Fatima? Do you believe these things actually work for their intended purpose?
I have never even heard of this, so I have no idea what the purpose is. It sounds very funny, and very superstitious to me. I really can't comment more than that.
I wonder if this isn't closely related to the situation at Lourdes where there are piles of discarded crutches and wheelchairs and not a single discarded prosthetic limb.

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Old 06-02-2007, 10:00 AM   #210
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Irr, are they like souvenirs or something? I have a mannequin head at home but I use it as a hat rack not for healing. Perhaps I’ve been underutilizing it this whole time.
Lucky is he indeed who has a spare head on which to rest his troubles.

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