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Old 06-03-2007, 09:10 PM   #361
anthonyjfuchs
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Lily wrote
Do the Iliad and the Odyssey claim divine inspiration?
The Qur'an does. Give me half-a-reason to believe when you say it's not.

atheist (n): one who remains unconvinced.
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Old 06-03-2007, 09:13 PM   #362
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It is hard to believe that Carrier could write something so fatuous. The Chinese were an ancient, highly developed civilization. Israel was a much less developed small tribe. Funny thing, though. God chose them.
I'm curious, then, why god made the chinese so much more developed. Just to shit on them when they die? Where was there Jesus, or Moses?
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Old 06-03-2007, 11:31 PM   #363
calpurnpiso
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Mog wrote:


"Isn't the very existence of the apostles on flimsy historical ground as well?"

There is NO historical, archaeological record they existed. They exist ONLY in religious texts.So, the evidence is not flimsy but lacking. Lily is too stupid, ignorant and delusional to believe otherwise. I'd like to see her evidence!..:lol::lol::lol:

Christians and other folks infected with delusional beliefs think and reason like schizophrenics or temporal lobe epileptics. Their morality is dictated by an invisible friend called Jesus.
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Old 06-04-2007, 12:26 AM   #364
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Lily wrote
Do the Iliad and the Odyssey claim divine inspiration? Other than the muses, of course. Can you seriously believe that there is more archaeological evidence to support the Trojan war than any of the events in the Bible? Do you really believe that there was no Babylonian captivity of the Jews, that there was no King Xerxes or King Cyrus? Was the Temple not destroyed in the 1st Century? And so on, and so on.
I did not say that there is no archeological evidence for the events in the bible (like many myths they usually have a kernel of truth), just that the evidence for the Trojan War surpasses the evidence of any one event in the bible (such as the exodus or Joshua's conquest of Jericho). If you want to review the evidence for the Trojan War then I suggest you watch Michael Wood's documentary series titled "In Search Of The Trojan War".

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Lily wrote
It is hard to believe that Carrier could write something so fatuous. The Chinese were an ancient, highly developed civilization. Israel was a much less developed small tribe. Funny thing, though. God chose them.
I think you missed the point. Carrier was comparing something that was written by man to something that is claimed to be the divinely inspired word of god. If the bible is truly divinely inspired then god is clearly not worth his salt, since a mere mortal can write and communicate a thousand times better.

Religion - it gives people hope in a world torn apart by religion.
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Old 06-04-2007, 04:33 AM   #365
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calpurnpiso wrote
Mog wrote:


"Isn't the very existence of the apostles on flimsy historical ground as well?"

There is NO historical, archaeological record they existed. They exist ONLY in religious texts.So, the evidence is not flimsy but lacking. Lily is too stupid, ignorant and delusional to believe otherwise. I'd like to see her evidence!..:lol::lol::lol:
Her evidence, as she said, is the book of Acts. How, she must wonder, could the book of Acts have been written if there had not been apostles? Since the author of that book was obviously both observant and truthful, there must have been apostles just as he wrote. In addition, the existence of apostles ensures that Jesus was actually God (ref: Koresh, Jones etc...).:vomit:

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 06-04-2007, 04:36 AM   #366
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Demigod79 wrote
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Lily wrote
It is hard to believe that Carrier could write something so fatuous. The Chinese were an ancient, highly developed civilization. Israel was a much less developed small tribe. Funny thing, though. God chose them.
I think you missed the point. Carrier was comparing something that was written by man to something that is claimed to be the divinely inspired word of god. If the bible is truly divinely inspired then god is clearly not worth his salt, since a mere mortal can write and communicate a thousand times better.
Demi:
People have been questioning the distribution of God's gifts since the beginning of human history. It is a familiar motif in literature. Did you ever see the movie Amadeus? Shaffer, the author of the play it was based on, used it to drive the plot. Why had God given a dirty-minded yokel like Mozart the musical gifts that he, Salieri, a God-fearing, music loving, devout musician had always prayed for? The answer is, as it must ever be, "who can say?" God does what He does. Thus I say that Carrier's statement is simply breath-taking in its fatuity.

Snap, the whole world was created by God and is loved by him. Christ died for all. That we know for certain. I don't think there is much more one can say beyond the fact that Paul states that God is known to all through nature and that men have always known Him. Thus, they will be judged in accordance with the light they had.

Edited for clarity!

Edited again for clarity because clarity was not achieved the first or 2nd time.
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Old 06-04-2007, 04:38 AM   #367
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Sternwallow wrote
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calpurnpiso wrote
Mog wrote:


"Isn't the very existence of the apostles on flimsy historical ground as well?"

There is NO historical, archaeological record they existed. They exist ONLY in religious texts.So, the evidence is not flimsy but lacking. Lily is too stupid, ignorant and delusional to believe otherwise. I'd like to see her evidence!..:lol::lol::lol:
Her evidence, as she said, is the book of Acts. How, she must wonder, could the book of Acts have been written if there had not been apostles? Since the author of that book was obviously both observant and truthful, there must have been apostles just as he wrote. In addition, the existence of apostles ensures that Jesus was actually God (ref: Koresh, Jones etc...).:vomit:
Ridiculous. When you descend into this sort of fatuous dishonesty, there is nothing left to do but leave you to it.
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Old 06-04-2007, 05:16 AM   #368
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Lily wrote
...the whole world was created by God and is loved by him. Christ died for all. That we know for certain.
We know no such thing. You may believe this to be the case, but in over 2,000 posts, you have yet to come close to proving that a sentient creator of the universe exists, nor have you offered any compelling reason for a skeptic to accept on your word (nor the Bible's, nor the Vatican's, nor Billy Graham's) the existence of a man/god named Christ, much less that this character died for anybody's alleged transgressions.

That's the honest-to-goodness truth.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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Old 06-04-2007, 05:27 AM   #369
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Lily wrote
Quote:
Sternwallow wrote
Quote:
calpurnpiso wrote
Mog wrote:


"Isn't the very existence of the apostles on flimsy historical ground as well?"

There is NO historical, archaeological record they existed. They exist ONLY in religious texts.So, the evidence is not flimsy but lacking. Lily is too stupid, ignorant and delusional to believe otherwise. I'd like to see her evidence!..:lol::lol::lol:
Her evidence, as she said, is the book of Acts. How, she must wonder, could the book of Acts have been written if there had not been apostles? Since the author of that book was obviously both observant and truthful, there must have been apostles just as he wrote. In addition, the existence of apostles ensures that Jesus was actually God (ref: Koresh, Jones etc...).:vomit:
Ridiculous. When you descend into this sort of fatuous dishonesty, there is nothing left to do but leave you to it.
No problem. Lily, since we're not the ones being dishonest.

"It's puzzling that Eden is synonymous with paradise when, if you think about it at all, it's more like a maximum-security prison with twenty-four hour surveillance." -Ann Druyan
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Old 06-04-2007, 06:16 AM   #370
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...the whole world was created by God and is loved by him. Christ died for all. That we know for certain.
We know no such thing. You may believe this to be the case, but in over 2,000 posts, you have yet to come close to proving that a sentient creator of the universe exists, nor have you offered any compelling reason for a skeptic to accept on your word (nor the Bible's, nor the Vatican's, nor Billy Graham's) the existence of a man/god named Christ, much less that this character died for anybody's alleged transgressions.

That's the honest-to-goodness truth.
Irr, you are becoming just like the others. You are starting to pounce without thinking. The context of my message should have made clear that "we" referred to Christians.

Beyond that, I would suggest that you listen to the quite interesting McGrath / Dawkins discussion (link is in the similarly named thread). If you pay particular attention to McGrath, you may come away with a better idea of what I believe.
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Old 06-04-2007, 06:24 AM   #371
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Lily wrote
Irr, you are becoming just like the others. You are starting to pounce without thinking. The context of my message should have made clear that "we" referred to Christians.

Beyond that, I would suggest that you listen to the quite interesting McGrath / Dawkins discussion (link is in the similarly named thread). If you pay particular attention to McGrath, you may come away with a better idea of what I believe.
I am not becoming like anyone. Remember, we're practically peers when it comes to how much time we both have spent on this planet. I've been around long enough to have a mind of my own.

And I understood your perfectly. You Christians live on the same planet I do. You have faith in your various claims, but that is all you can have. You cannot know something that is unknowable. That's all I've been trying to get across to you in my various responses to your posts.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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Old 06-04-2007, 06:34 AM   #372
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Lily wrote
You are starting to pounce without thinking.
It might be a nice change of pace if responding to anything you said required even the smallest measure of thinking.

Alas, I could mash my face against the keyboard and still fashion a response that would debunk your trite nonsense.

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Lily wrote
-- you may come away with a better idea of what I believe.
Blech. What pretentious nonsense.

What you believe is not nearly as cryptic or difficult to parse as you want to believe it is. You believe a set of unsubstantiated myths that you insist have been substantiated. You believe that a character, who was simultaneously his own father and son, was born to a virgin mother 33 years before he allowed mankind to murder him as a sacrifice to himself in order to redeem the collective transgressions of mankind and protect mankind from his own wrath, which mankind incurred when a dust-man and a rib-woman were tricked into eating a poisoned apple by a talking snake. You believe that the ancient writings of half-a-dozen anonymous authors are sufficient evidence to support these absurd assertions. You believe that making a claim makes that claim true. You believe that 2+2=22, and that anyone who disagrees with you is incapable of understanding the meaning of written words. You believe that you are right, and we are wrong.

That's fine. You are free to believe whatever random nonsense you find appealing. It is perfectly within your rights to be dangerously incorrect, and you are entitled to embarass yourself all you want by trotting out your ignorance in public.

By the way: everything written in this post was divinely inspired by the word of Zeus.

atheist (n): one who remains unconvinced.
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Old 06-04-2007, 07:37 AM   #373
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faith /feyth/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[feyth] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
I don't know how much plainer I can be, Lily. But faith is all you got. If it sustains you, well, mazal tov. You can lecture like Billy Graham at a tent revival meeting but, at the end of the day, the vast majority of your claims cannot be independently verified. Frankly, I don't understand why, if you are a woman of faith, that fact would bother you. It is, after all, the nature of this thing you hold so dear.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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Old 06-04-2007, 07:53 AM   #374
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Demi:
People have been questioning the distribution of God's gifts since the beginning of human history. It is a familiar motif in literature. Did you ever see the movie Amadeus? Shaffer, the author of the play it was based on, used it to drive the plot. Why had God given a dirty-minded yokel like Mozart the musical gifts he, a God-fearing, music loving, devout man had always prayed for? The answer is, as it must ever be, "who can say?" God does what He does. Thus I say that Carrier's statement is simply breath-taking in its fatuity.

Snap, the whole world was created by God and is loved by him. Christ died for all. That we know for certain. I don't think there is much more one can say beyond the fact that Paul states that God is known to all through nature and that men have always known Him. Thus, they will be judged in accordance with the light they had.

Edited for clarity!
It is plain that the gift of fatuity, if Carrier has it, is shared in abundance by Lily.

The example of course is backwards. Instead of towering achievement in scripture as one reasonably expects from a communicator inspired by god, the works are so filled with indecipherable and incoherent and conflicting elements that they can only be the products of an inferior author though the gift of clear and accurate writing has been given abundantly to others.
For the Mozart example to be relevant, the god-gifted author's resulting scriptures should have been as effective at communicating God's single message unambiguously as the music is to convey great soaring emotions.

Whatever claims are made for the great or even transcendent quality of the scriptures (which I dispute) the inability of the best thinkers to discover a consistent content thus splitting the religion into thousands of differing "one true religions", the scriptures are poor examples of godlike workmanship.

Lily has complained previously that I set myself up as a judge of what God "ought" to do and be. It seems both reasonable and prudent to set a high standard for something to deserve my (or anyone’s) reverence and worship. One should not, I think, throw in one's lot with the first cheesy little god that comes along, pushing a thick pamphlet printed on recycled comic book themes.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 06-04-2007, 08:11 AM   #375
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Lily wrote
Quote:
Sternwallow wrote
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calpurnpiso wrote
Mog wrote:


"Isn't the very existence of the apostles on flimsy historical ground as well?"

There is NO historical, archaeological record they existed. They exist ONLY in religious texts. So, the evidence is not flimsy but lacking. Lily is too stupid, ignorant and delusional to believe otherwise. I'd like to see her evidence!. .:lol::lol::lol:
Her evidence, as she said, is the book of Acts. How, she must wonder, could the book of Acts have been written if there had not been apostles? Since the author of that book was obviously both observant and truthful, there must have been apostles just as he wrote. In addition, the existence of apostles ensures that Jesus was actually God (ref: Koresh, Jones etc...).:vomit:
Ridiculous. When you descend into this sort of fatuous dishonesty, there is nothing left to do but leave you to it.
Ah, dishonesty, you say?

Weren't you the poster who identified Acts as the key document for the veracity of the Gospels and the Apostles through their various sacrifices and martyrdom?

Are you not the person who used the claim that the Biblical authors were eyeball witnesses and people of good standing and truthful, as evidence that the things they wrote about were factual?

Have not the leaders of all cults, no matter how depraved, obtained their influence from a coterie of sycophants, often willing to commit suicide?

I find some enlargement of your earlier positions in my characterization of you, but I don't see any dishonesty, much less fatuous dishonesty.

Evidently my anticipation of the probable tone of a Lily response struck too close to the bone. Ridiculous? Perhaps not.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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