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Old 10-14-2010, 07:26 AM   #31
ubs
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As Atheists we often can't get theists to engage in rational discourse, so we have to get creative....

Atheist Bubbling - I'm still trying to figure out how it will work.
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Old 10-14-2010, 07:38 AM   #32
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As Atheists we often can't get theists to engage in rational discourse, so we have to get creative....

.
Do you mean like creating a desperate philosophy that a gigantic explosion spewed out rocks, dirt, etc... and over a whole bunch of time with countless accidental compilations upon compilations your human anatomy arrived which allows you to have 'rational' discourse ?! Any discourse you have from an accidental brain would also be accidental and therefore a fluke of nature ...certainly nothing that should be deemed credible or of value. Even creativity isnt justifiable in a material only Cosmos -- in fact, it too is impossible. You see, the Atheist has to actually borrow from a Theistic Worldview the things he needs to help his athestic position ! So never put down Theism ever again ...lol... cheers.
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Old 10-14-2010, 07:50 AM   #33
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Troll!

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
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Old 10-14-2010, 07:52 AM   #34
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Complete Troll and a dildo boy.


Stop the Holy See men!
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Old 10-14-2010, 09:31 AM   #35
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1. What have YOU done to look into the evidences for a personal Theistic Creator . Please list the sources youve gone to where you have diligently researched this issue.
And what evidence do you possess that shows there is a personal theistic creator? You haven't shared it here.

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Ex Atheist wrote
2. Why are you an 'atheist' instead of an agnostic Seeker ? What is your personal ulterior motive for wanting to be an atheist ?
An agnostic seeker of "what?" Your questions were directed to Kamikaze189, but I'll tell you that I don't have an ulterior motive for not believing as you do. Quite simply, I would be dishonest if I adopted your faith as my own.

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3. Does your human body look like it is a compilation of accidents upon accidents with some 60 systems working in delicate balance and in total unison ?
There are plenty of malformed bodies out there. We usually refer to them as "birth defects." Would you call them "accidents?" I wouldn't. For our purposes, we could call them anomalies. But what would an "accidental" human body look like, according to you?

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4. What concrete naturalistic source or process can you cite for abiogenesis being a fact?
Well, I could waste time searching for links on the Internet that might answer your question, but that would be dishonest. You see, I'm not a scientist, nor is my atheism dependant on my being one. I have a scant knowledge of science but, like you, I am a beneficiary of the works by those who toil at its various disciplines. I am aware that, without the efforts of those who actively engage in the scientific method, my life would be far poorer than it is now and in a very concrete way. I certainly wouldn't be able to communite with you using this virtual medium.

What, in your opinion, has theism contributed to the world?

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5. How does a materialistic universe give us highly non material personal traits such as reason, empathy, compassion, love, logic, intellect , and human rights ?
Have you even investigated what "science" has to say about the development of these human traits? I assume you don't reject all scientific assertions out of hand, at least not the ones from which you clearly benefit. Do you have expertise in any the scientific disciplines that would make you a credible critic of scientists' work? Keep in mind that scientists are not mere speculators like theologians are. Sure, scientists speculate, but then they are required to back up their assertions with empiricism and copious testing, or else they're not practicing science.

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6. What is the benefit of no ultimate moral accountability in the life of an atheist ?
Why do you assume that we lack a moral framework by which to guide our actions and that we are not held to account for our choices? What do you think you know about us strangers as individuals? I can tell you that I was never compelled to urinate over anyone's private property, as you claim you once were compelled to.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
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Old 10-14-2010, 10:12 AM   #36
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I WAS an atheist wannabe , proclaimed it, and lived it.
Well, you've already explained elsewhere on this forum that you wanted to be an atheist in order to indulge your destructive tendencies. So your intentions for claiming to embrace that position were dishonest from the get-go.

It seems apparent to me (based on what you've been sharing here, albeit cryptically) that you weren't so much proclaiming your alleged atheism as much as you were proclaiming your right to be a complete asshole, and with impugnity.

FYI: That has never been an endeavor of mine.

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I ridiculed Christians...
And now you ridicule non-Christians, atheists, in particular. So you're still in the business of ridiculing. You don't get any special points for exhalting the home team. That's mere tribalism and there ain't nothing special about that.

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... told jokes about God
Which, I guess, is a dangerous thing if you actually do believe in the existence of this God that you allege, and you believe that it is lacking a sense of humor and is wrathful, to boot.

As an atheist who is not merely "playing" at being an atheist, I don't have any fear of this alleged thing that seems to be scaring you so.

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... and even urinated on Church grounds. I was proud of my rebellion.
As I said previously, I've never been that proud. I could not take pride in literally pissing on someone else's private property. I don't connect pride to mindless actions like that.

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... But, I had to stop playing the self-induced charade game that the extreme complexity of the Cosmos and things in it like the DNA molecule were just accidental/without purpose and that materials like dirt, rocks, and planets from an accidental huge explosion ultimately led up to a 206 bone human being having a brain said to be the most complex instrument in the Universe known to man.
Wow. You had to do all this just to keep from indulging your urges to commit vandalism? Well, all I can say is I am grateful that I don't share your predilections.

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It is far far more plausible that the remnants at StoneHenge arrived by mudslides, rain, sun, precise lightening strikes on rocks, strong winds, a few earthquakes, time, with the magical wand of chance ....yet you wouldnt dare believe that (or, would you my Friend ?!)
I don't believe in magic.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:00 AM   #37
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Thank you for clarifying Irrs point that you were clearly not a skeptical atheist. One that understands evolution for a start. Also empathy, compassion etc help you get laid my good man, also help a society progress over say 2000000 odd years. Plenty of moral accountability too. If I kill someone I go to prison, in real life lol. Also that persons family may well hunt me down and kill me etc etc. Get the picture. There were morals pre Christianity, Islam. They evolved as we did.
Evidence for no theistic creator. Read God delusion, Philosophically rams the arse hole out of faith in God, as does any book from Dawkins, Hitchen. As for science, evolution pisses in Gods badly designed eyes straight away. Cosmology has yet to need to add God to describe the wonders it sees. It turns out all God is is nature. Nature doesn't care who you prey to, it does what it wants to. You can only manage it bit by bit as you get more and more advanced as a species. Someone did claim that god was in fact special alien beings that have managed to control nature on here. No proof for that either but more credible than a supernatural being outside the realms of science.
In order :

1. I understand micro and macro evolution precisely. Do you understand the laws of physics and biology completely make macro evolution (darwinnian evolution) totally impossible ? Further, before you discuss macro evolution, you need to show that abiogenesis took place . Can you without resorting to unsubstantiated theories ?
2. What helped me fornicate was duping myself to willfully suppress my moral conscience which is at the heart of social atheism.
3. How did the first moral 'evolve' in a material universe ? Did a Pet Rock affirm that Humans should really be moral ?!
4. Ive read alot of Dawkins. Unconvincing based on his hatred for the Christian Faith . Not even a good militant atheist Leader since he is interviewed confessing to Intelligent Design/a Personal Creator with Ben Stien.
4.a. The atheistic excuse concerning the human eye has been debunked if you do a google. I suspect you wouldnt want to go without your 'poor designed' eyes for even a day. How about explaining how evolution gave us the human eye when if any part of the eye is missing, it is rendered inoperable -- precisely what Darwin said would end his THEORY completely.
5. Nature doesnt willfully design, engineer, nor provide specific complex messages as in the DNA molecule to the tune of an entire set of Enclyopedia Britiannica (one cells worth of specified info) . Nature isnt a Creator anymore than going to Cornwall for a genuine Cornish Pasty makes you a Pasty.
6. Like everyone else on earth, you know intrinsically, that there has to be an intelligent Architect behind all of this .... its only Mans pride , arrogance, and willful rebellion that keeps him from admitting it verbally. Its part of the willful personal con game to get what we want IE: A life that puts US in control and US that is god .
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:11 AM   #38
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Well, you've already explained elsewhere on this forum that you wanted to be an atheist in order to indulge your destructive tendencies. So your intentions for claiming to embrace that position were dishonest from the get-go.

It seems apparent to me (based on what you've been sharing here, albeit cryptically) that you weren't so much proclaiming your alleged atheism as much as you were proclaiming your right to be a complete asshole, and with impugnity.

FYI: That has never been an endeavor of mine.


And now you ridicule non-Christians, atheists, in particular. So you're still in the business of ridiculing. You don't get any special points for exhalting the home team. That's mere tribalism and there ain't nothing special about that.


Which, I guess, is a dangerous thing if you actually do believe in the existence of this God that you allege, and you believe that it is lacking a sense of humor and is wrathful, to boot.

As an atheist who is not merely "playing" at being an atheist, I don't have any fear of this alleged thing that seems to be scaring you so.


As I said previously, I've never been that proud. I could not take pride in literally pissing on someone else's private property. I don't connect pride to mindless actions like that.


Wow. You had to do all this just to keep from indulging your urges to commit vandalism? Well, all I can say is I am grateful that I don't share your predilections.


I don't believe in magic.
There was no dishonesty ; you have a misconception about my once held atheism. I became a proclaimed atheist because I thought the excuses available were somewhat valid scientifically (which they arent) and my lifestyle choices made atheism easy and desirable to grasp -- afterall, who wants a moral Creator to answer to after a lifetime of self centered hedonistic pleasure of the immoral kind (?) . It wasnt till after a good 10 years of being disengenuous with myself that I found atheism to be bankrupt both socially, morally, and as a worldview. Taking an honest look at the evidence for a personal theistic Creator WITHOUT BIAS , eventually brought me to a place of abandoning atheism just as world reknown philosopher Anthony Flew concluded who is now a Theist. The same can happen with you too so your ultimate purpose in being alive can be realized. And no...its not working 40 hours per week so you can slowly self destruct on the weekends thru less than palatable venues. If youre interested then start here >>> http://www.amazon.co.uk/God-Not-Grea.../dp/1843545861

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Old 10-14-2010, 11:23 AM   #39
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Most likely a huge waste of my time... (Part 1)

Ex Atheist - I know you won't read/process/response/acknowledge this post before I even finish writing word one, but something deep within me drives me to respond. Call it foolish or counter-productive, but here I go. I had to break this into two posts because of its length so bear with me.***Disclaimer*** I might use naughty language. I assume you aren't a minor. Reading dirty words should be the worst thing that ever happens to you in life. If you can find the strength to soldier on, then consider yourself "warned."

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First, I want to give you kudos for not resorting to the type of foul and vile language and defamation that is so typical of atheists today. They somehow thing(sic) that it makes their position more tenable . ANd frankly, Im sadened that the Administrator to this Forum allows this type of lowlife language to blossom.
The administrators don't control the language we use here because, like I said, we are adults and we realize that dirty words have no power over us (much like every imaginary god that mankind has ever dreamt up). When it becomes evident that we're dealing with a child whose parents have allowed them to visit the site either to "witness" to us, or simply due to a lack of internet lock, we typically simmer down (typically). We are not of one mind on anything other that our position that we do not foster a belief in anything belonging to the supernatural (i.e., outside of the realm of science and nature, and relegated to magic and fantasy, something that cannot be substantiated with any reliable or repeatable method). If someone makes a valid point or question in a post and all you do is focus on the swear(s), a la "Lily," then you've already lost the battle. To be fair, though, you lost the battle the second you entered a forum to debate the existence of an imaginary entity with a bunch of people firmly grounded in reality. You'd have more luck convincing us that Luke Skywalker really CAN bullseye a womp rat in a T-16.


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I am an Evidential Apologist and have debated many atheists and could very easily list the scientific evidences for a personal Theistic Creator but ive learned over the years that nearly ALL atheists arent truly interested in looking at it because it is an affront to them.
How convenient, then, that you've still yet to present any reliable shred of independently verifiable "proof." If you had anything that counted as proof of the supernatural or of any god, you'd be a famous and wealthy individual. I know some atheists who consider "evidence" from the position of ignorance to be the highest affrontage imagineable. These are the ones who have attained masters degrees in astrophysics, quantum mechanics, thermdynamics, biology, chemistry, you name it. They lead examined lives of study and introspection. They have built grand cathedrals using logic and reason as the building blocks, scientific proofs and theories (don't go misinterpreting that word again) in lieu of stained glass. These structures are firm because they are based on the solid ground of empirical evidence, tested theorems, mountains of evidence and the flexibility of being able to say "I don't know" if presented with a question they cannot readily answer. Religion doesn't do that. Religion asserts that all the answers to the difficult questions lie with god, which is a lazy, self-limiting approach to life. If we embraced this mindset as a populace we'd never get out of the bronze age. Saying "I don't know" in our minds isn't an admission that something supernatural has to be filling the gaps. More often than not, it really means "i don't know YET." Science has a funny way of building on itself and reshaping to fit and reflect new evidence. Sciences are often added to or updated to incorporate new knowledge or better data. Religion doesn't do this except when it breaks from itself to create new sects designed to allow them to practice their faith in a slightly different way. This is how we have dozens of flavors of christianity from what was supposed to be "one truth." At any rate, science is very much alive and breathing (evolving if you will) while religion is static, locked in place and relegated to a time before people were truly allowed to pursue interests and theories that ran contrary to the church canon (or at least such was the case with the main branches of the judeo-christian traditions). The people who become atheists through years of accumulated research and study, personal introspection and philosophy are angered by theists who claim to have evidence of the supernatural because without fail or exception, this supposed "evidence" boils down to 1.) personal anecdotal stories that cannot be verified in any meaningful way, 2.) personal "feelings" which are actually explainable through a cursory understanding of brain chemistry, 3.) arguments attacking evolution that clearly demonstrate that you have no idea what evolution is or how it works, 4.) arguments attacking geologists in their method of determining the true age of the earth (or any number of arguments attacking scientific methods they don't understand, coming from people who want to defend 900-year old farmers, a talking snake, virgin birth, a 6,000 year old earth, belief in an afterlife, etc). When shown that their evidence doesn't qualify in any way, shape or form as "evidence," the theist invariably gets mad and recites bible verses at us, as if they think that's supposed to have any effect on us. The reason I brought up the analogy of the cathedral before is because when theists toss out bible quotes or "pray for us" or tell us we're going to burn in their imaginary lake of fire for not believing (how very christian of you) it's the equivalent of dropping your pants, pinching off a steaming log into your hand, and throwing it at the walls, then smearing your hand across the door on your way out. [/quote]


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I came to this NG to see if there is an atheist who can truly defend their atheist/humanist position, or, if they too want to resign to stating that atheism is simply declaring that 'No God exists' (as if they could factually know that beyond all doubt) .
Again with the strawmen. There isn't one cohesive atheist position on this. Some atheists assert that there is no god, other atheists say there is no evidence to support the notion that god(s) exist, so why not just live a moral life because it's what's best for society rather than out of fear that a god of infinite love and compassion will torture us forever for not believing in the intangible? Why do you think I need to defend my atheist position? You're the one with the wild unprovable assertions. The burden of proof is very CLEARLY upon you. I think what gets you all riled up is the fact that we live our lives, pay our taxes, do our part in society, but we don't accept your belief system for the fairy tale it is so in your mind that's supposed to make us immoral or even evil. If we sound angry to you it's because we deal with people here all the time who visit us if only to lob their feces at the walls to see what sticks, only what they never seem to realize is their arguments are baseless, or they present cases against purposefully misunderstood scientific concepts, we've literally heard it ALL before, and we can only repeat ourselves so many times before we develop a knee-jerk reaction to what we view as stupidity (i.e., an inability to learn, process new information, or seek out answers to questions they may have in a book other than the one they've been regurgitating all their lives. "Crap in, crap out" as the saying goes.). I help people in need. I pay my taxes. I work two jobs. Tell me again why I need to defend my position?

***PART II to follow***

Think of it as Skull Island for theistic beliefs...Even if you survive the Choobusaurus there is still that ravine full of giant atheistropods waiting to make a meal of you.
"I won't think in your church if you promise not to pray in my school"
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:25 AM   #40
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Most likely a huge waste of my time...Part II

...and here is part II:

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So, what id like to ask you is :
1. What have YOU done to look into the evidences for a personal Theistic Creator . Please list the sources youve gone to where you have diligently researched this issue.
What have you done to look into the evidence that there is a purple teapot orbiting uranus? Nothing? What's that you say? That would be a total waste of your time and energy because the notion is utterly ridiculous? What a coincidence. I don't waste time pondering the ridiculous. I am firmly grounded in reality. Having a chemistry, physics and biology teacher for a father, an interest in NOVA, JAMA, Popular Mechanics, Popular Science and psychology armed me with all the tools I'd ever need to eliminate the need to search for an imaginary deity. I have the answer to the questions in my life, or enough of them to realize that there's no need to try to fill in the gaps with a god of any stripe. Education is the enemy of religion. I think you'll find that most atheists are highly educated individuals with post-graduate degrees and letters after their names. The more you learn about your world, the fewer places god has to hide. Also, with higher education usually comes a higher earning potential. it's no wonder that people who live in third world countries, swatting flies all day, need to believe in god and the afterlife. Their lives are difficult and they often have limited access to education, so they hope for something better after they die. Unfortunately, hope doesn't translate into reality. The universe doesn't care what your hopes, dreams and aspirations are, because the universe is incapable of caring. It simply exists. I was raised in the jewish faith and I dropped it shortly after my Bar Mitzvah. I never truly believed in god. The way I figure it, if he truly existed and was all powerful and all-knowing, he couldn't be all loving. Take childhood cancer, for example. If you believe god is responsible for all that goes on in our lives and has the power to change things to suit his whim, why allow cancer to grow in children? I have many, many more questions such as those. If your god existed, he'd have a lot to answer for, don't you think?

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2. Why are you an 'atheist' instead of an agnostic Seeker ? What is your personal ulterior motive for wanting to be an atheist ?
Wow - so in your mind someone needs an "ulterior motive" to deviate from your way of seeing the world? You claim to have been an atheist at one point in time (even though I called BS on that a while back) - tell me, what was YOUR "ulterior motive?" My only motive for being an atheist is that I see no reason not to be one. I see no proof of god, the devil, an afterlife, or anything else intangible or supernatural. I'm not trying to rule the world. I'm not even trying to convert anyone to atheism. I'm only trying to combat stupidity and willful ignorance. I will always offer a voice of dissent against a tidal wave of "popular opinion" if I know that I'm arguing from a scientifically sound position while my opposition is relying on religion. I identify more with atheism than agnosticism because I believe that an agnostic is still clutching to that last string of belief in the supernatural, and that person is afraid of being labeled as an atheist. We're the most hated group in america, after all. People often hate what they can't defeat.


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3. Does your human body look like it is a compilation of accidents upon accidents with some 60 systems working in delicate balance and in total unison ?
This speaks to what I was saying earlier about not having a clue about a subject you're attemtping to disprove. Try to grasp these concepts and if you manage to do so you'll be much better off for the experience:

A.) We are here to marvel at our own complexity and existence because we ARE HERE. This is the same argument as saying "look how perfect this whole solar system thing is to support us and if it were any different we might not be here." You're arguing from the wrong position. If things didn't happen as they did we wouldn't be here to state it must have been god that stepped in to make it so.

B.) Many genetic abnormalities result in offspring that have no significant advantage in their environment. More often than not, the result is actual detrimental to the survival of that particular offspring. Every now and then, however, an animal is born with a slightly different physiology that affords it an advantage over other "normal" members of its species, given its specific environmental attributes. Because it has this slight advantage, it usually survives long enough to pass on its genetic material to the next generation. This process takes many generations of breeding to result in what would become a unique species, and it assumes that the conditions of the environment remain relatively biased in favor of the genetic mutation. If the environment undergoes a change, it could very easily turn what was once a beneficial mutation into a liability.

c.) The systems (60? where is this number coming from?) and balance of which you speak developed over many thousands of years, and if you actually wanted to sit through an explanation of where they come from and how they came to be I'm sure one of the biologists here would be happy to either explain it to you as best they can or direct you to a website maintained by accredited members of the scientific community. Also, if you're trying to infer some divine hand in the creation of these systems, he didn't do a very good job. Often these systems break down or deteriorate to the point where only medical science can repair them.

[quote=Ex Atheist;619969]4. What concrete naturalistic source or process can you cite for abiogenesis being a fact ?[quote]

I assume you know how to use a search engine seeing as how you found your way to this forum. Try typing in "abiogenesis" into the browser and click on a link that's not written by the discovery institute. If you don't want to encounter information that challenges your worldview, then I can't make you. If you actually want to learn something, even if it goes against what you currently believe, then I can only imagine you know where to look.

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5. How does a materialistic universe give us highly non material personal traits such as reason, empathy, compassion, love, logic, intellect , and human rights ?
All of the things in that list are things that humans have developed in accordance with the goal of creating a society worth living in and protecting. They are functions of a complex mind, and the last example is a by-product of countless years of struggle (usually against people who claimed to be keeping a group down because their religious upbringing taught them to do so. Current examples are people who want to deny gay people the right to marry and keep them out of the military. Not too long ago people wanted to keep blacks from voting or marrying out of their race, before that it was women who were denied rights, etc etc). Any trait that is ultimately beneficial to society, and by extension, the individuals who exist within that society, will be embraced and encouraged. The bible sets itself up as the originator of these concepts, but people knew they should kill or steal from their neighbors long before a book came out to tell them not to. People know these things are intrinsically wrong because they don't want anyone stealing from them or killing them. If you want to argue that morality comes from religion or the bible, would you care to explain why atheists are consistently under-represented in our penal systems? They sum up a paltry fraction of the inmates who self-identify as christian or muslim.

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6. What is the benefit of no ultimate moral accountability in the life of an atheist ?
Why is it so hard for a theist to comprehend that an atheist can be moral? Atheists don't run rampant in the streets killing, raping and pillaging because (are you sitting down?) we don't want to, and we recognize that such actions have consequences. We don't want to go to jail, we don't want out good names tarnished, we don't want to shame our families, lose our property or lose our jobs. I find it shocking that you would actually think that we don't place moral accountability upon ourselves. Your bible or religion didn't copywrite morality. Quite the opposite, some of the biggest attrocities in the history of mankind have been perpetrated either by members of a religious group in a position of absolute power, or in the name of a god or gods. Do you stop yourself from murdering, robbing and raping your neighbors only because you want to go to heaven? Do you realize just how unstable that makes you sound? Am I not MORE moral, in my atheism, for refraining from such activities than the theist who does so only for fear of divine reprisal? I help people in need, give charitably when I am able, and fulfill my obligations to society because i recognize that these are all things that are expected of me in order to be a productive member of society. I don't expect any reward for doing the right thing, which is good, because I KNOW I won't get one. We're just mature enough to face this fact and keep moving forward. We are adults with adult minds, and we have given up imaginary friends (and enemies).

Think of it as Skull Island for theistic beliefs...Even if you survive the Choobusaurus there is still that ravine full of giant atheistropods waiting to make a meal of you.
"I won't think in your church if you promise not to pray in my school"
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:25 AM   #41
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:29 AM   #42
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Do you mean like creating a desperate philosophy that a gigantic explosion spewed out rocks, dirt, etc... and over a whole bunch of time with countless accidental compilations upon compilations your human anatomy arrived which allows you to have 'rational' discourse ?! Any discourse you have from an accidental brain would also be accidental and therefore a fluke of nature ...certainly nothing that should be deemed credible or of value. Even creativity isnt justifiable in a material only Cosmos -- in fact, it too is impossible. You see, the Atheist has to actually borrow from a Theistic Worldview the things he needs to help his athestic position ! So never put down Theism ever again ...lol... cheers.
I'm guessing your were the valedictorian of your homeschool?

Think of it as Skull Island for theistic beliefs...Even if you survive the Choobusaurus there is still that ravine full of giant atheistropods waiting to make a meal of you.
"I won't think in your church if you promise not to pray in my school"
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:33 AM   #43
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1. I understand micro and macro evolution precisely. Do you understand the laws of physics and biology completely make macro evolution (darwinnian evolution) totally impossible?
What are you referring to, precisely? That's too general a statement to respond to.

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Further, before you discuss macro evolution, you need to show that abiogenesis took place . Can you without resorting to unsubstantiated theories ?
Using your logic, before we can discuss cosmology, we must show that the big bang took place. Before we can discuss any history, we must show that the initial conditions took place. Before we look back on a child's life, we must prove that the parents had sex.

Do you see how restrictive that is? That's not how theoretical science works. Do you think Mendeleev could have come up with the periodic table if he was restricted by having to show knowledge of fundamentals that had yet to be discovered?

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4.a. The atheistic excuse concerning the human eye has been debunked if you do a google. I suspect you wouldnt want to go without your 'poor designed' eyes for even a day. How about explaining how evolution gave us the human eye when if any part of the eye is missing, it is rendered inoperable -- precisely what Darwin said would end his THEORY completely.
5. Nature doesnt willfully design, engineer, nor provide specific complex messages as in the DNA molecule to the tune of an entire set of Enclyopedia Britiannica (one cells worth of specified info) . Nature isnt a Creator anymore than going to Cornwall for a genuine Cornish Pasty makes you a Pasty.
At this point, I realize it's not worth continuing a discussion with you. It's obvious you haven't read Dawkin's works on evolution, or you would be conversant in convergent evolution. You know nothing about light-sensitive cells or anything about population and probability. Everything you're presenting are tired old anti-science canards that have been debunked repeatedly.

"Science and Mother Nature are in a marriage where Science is always surprised to come home and find Mother Nature blowing the neighbor." - Justin's Dad
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Old 10-14-2010, 12:12 PM   #44
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There was no dishonesty ; you have a misconception about my once held atheism. I became a proclaimed atheist because I thought the excuses available were somewhat valid scientifically (which they arent) and my lifestyle choices made atheism easy and desirable to grasp -- afterall, who wants a moral Creator to answer to after a lifetime of self centered hedonistic pleasure of the immoral kind (?) .
What, in your mind, was "scientifically valid" about pissing on someone's else property? Do you think this is something all or most atheists do? I don't understand what you think your former (?) lifestyle choices have to do with atheism?

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Ex Atheist wrote
It wasnt till after a good 10 years of being disengenuous with myself that I found atheism to be bankrupt both socially, morally, and as a worldview.
It's clear we don't share the same definition of the word "atheism" which, no doubt, accounts for why we are having this failure to effectively communicate with each other.

Atheism is not a worldview. It can't be. It's not a religion. There is no dogma nor are there any tenets associated with with "not believing in a God or gods." It's merely an intellectual position with respect to "theism." Do keep in mind that yours is but one of a plethora of theologies in existence, each with its own dogma and specific moral prescriptions.

Atheism has nothing to say about anyone's morals. Hence, when you were an atheist, according to your own testimony here, you thought it gave you license to be completely self-centered. While I, as an atheist, have never lived under such a delusion.

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Ex Atheist wrote
Taking an honest look at the evidence for a personal theistic Creator WITHOUT BIAS , eventually brought me to a place of abandoning atheism just as world reknown philosopher Anthony Flew concluded who is now a Theist.
But you were never really an atheist, by your own admission. You were a rebellious and proud hedonist who felt compelled to piss on other people's property. Why are you assuming that others here share your predilections? You don't ever answer that. Why?

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Ex Atheist wrote
The same can happen with you too so your ultimate purpose in being alive can be realized. And no...its not working 40 hours per week so you can slowly self destruct on the weekends thru less than palatable venues. If youre interested then start here >>> http://www.impactapologetics.com/pro...ion=1&P_ID=264
Why on earth would I want to be like you? What's so great about you? Left to your own devices, and without the threat of an alleged celestial guardian, you exhalted in literally pissing on other people's property! I don't.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox

Last edited by Irreligious; 10-14-2010 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 10-14-2010, 01:32 PM   #45
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Jahra, Thanks for your extended posts one and two. I do appreciate you forewarning me about the uncontrolled useage of foul language which you seem to think is plausible to use. And at one time i used to suppress my moral conscience in order to talk like that ; afterall, 'there is no Creator' to whom we must be responsible toward . If God were real, then of course it would be an affront to us because we wouldnt get to talk anyway we felt like. I came here to chat with atheists who still demonstrate some semblence of self control and who dont blur wrong and right . Ergo, I didnt read your posts per your warning , and again, I appreciate the thought. Call me counter-culture , but I greatly prefer it that way since our culture is also one big con . As an ex-atheist, ive been there done that. Regards.
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