Converting to Roman Catholicism.

[Broga]

psychodiva wrote

I believe some people convert to catholicism because of the ritual and 'majesty' they offer- what with all that repetitious hokey-cokey signalling to god and the rich finery worn by the priests - it does attract a certain type - not the least was the lovely but misguided Evelyn- great writer- always seeking a certain splendour in his life that he felt was missing

I think you provide another clue to the oddity of intelligent men and women accepting the obvious nonsense of Catholicism - "it does attract a certain type." There seem to be people who want to be smothered by the ritual and to put their brains on hold when they believe they have become cannibals eating flesh and and drinking blood. The "real" flesh, which I would think would be limited to what is in the "real" body provides an infinite supply.

I assume they also welcome Ratzi wearing his Gucci fashion items, heavily brocaded and covered in designer created frocks.

I still can't get my head round the idea that they actually believe what they are assenting to. There is as much evidence for the "truth" of Catholicism as there is for there being fairies at the bottom of my garden.

[Stargazer]

Broga wrote

I think you provide another clue to the oddity of intelligent men and women accepting the obvious nonsense of Catholicism - "it does attract a certain type." There seem to be people who want to be smothered by the ritual and to put their brains on hold when they believe they have become cannibals eating flesh and and drinking blood. The "real" flesh, which I would think would be limited to what is in the "real" body provides an infinite supply.

I assume they also welcome Ratzi wearing his Gucci fashion items, heavily brocaded and covered in designer created frocks.

I still can't get my head round the idea that they actually believe what they are assenting to. There is as much evidence for the "truth" of Catholicism as there is for there being fairies at the bottom of my garden.

No matter what their IQ, there are some people who are easily led, and have been trained, however unconsciously, from a young age to follow in certain areas of their lives. It requires a lot less mental fortitude to abdicate mental responsibility, than it does to retain it.

This conditioning is difficult to overcome, and even more so if those around you see it as a "virtue."

[psychodiva]

I think you have some of it there Stargazer- some people will readily put their rational intelligence 'on hold' in order to be involved in comforting ritual- rather like thumb-sucking they know it is bad for them but they do it nonetheless- akin to addictions in some way i think and if you are brought up to not question that aspect and to 'respect beliefs' and give them special privileges it is difficult to go against everything taught. The churches know this and it is why they are so keen on getting into schools

There are of course those who escape from this mindset but the ones that don't aren't necessarily non-intelligent or non open-minded I think its just that some - or most- people like to stick with the majority and don't question things because it is easier (and often safer) not to. The tipping point against religion tends to be like the tipping-point for any political movement - the critical mass has to take effect- I believe we will reach the critical mass with regards to atheism in the next decade or so (as long as the internet remains free and unfettered) and the scale will tip the other way resulting in religious people being outside the norm.

[Stargazer]

psychodiva wrote

I believe we will reach the critical mass with regards to atheism in the next decade or so (as long as the internet remains free and unfettered) and the scale will tip the other way resulting in religious people being outside the norm.

I heartily agree with you there, and I also think, as well, that similar tipping point sin regard to gender inequality, racism and class discrimination will be reached soon as well.

The touchstone may well be the generations coming up behind us.

[Broga]

I think the tipping point, and when it is reached, is increasing in interest. Once those opposing gender inequality, racism and class discrimination cease to be seen as a minority of oddities and instead holding a widespread view this is rather like the logs in the log jam breaking away. The National Secular Society features regularly in the media in the UK. The leaching away of support for Roman Catholicism in Ireland has become a flood. A government minister in Scotland has argued that faith schools cause religious disputation and violence.

Of course, the religious lobby howl in protest but their cries are the result of their fading support and have nothing to do with facts or morality. They rely for support on a right wing media, a BBC with heavy religious bias and numerous christians in the UK government.

[psychodiva]

Yes- and only a few years ago it was unusual to see or hear of the NSS or BHA - now we have crept into the armed forces and we are in the papers and on the radios and tvs of everyone good innit ?

[Stargazer]

psychodiva wrote

Yes- and only a few years ago it was unusual to see or hear of the NSS or BHA - now we have crept into the armed forces and we are in the papers and on the radios and tvs of everyone good innit ?

Quite!

[Broga]

psychodiva wrote

Yes- and only a few years ago it was unusual to see or hear of the NSS or BHA - now we have crept into the armed forces and we are in the papers and on the radios and tvs of everyone good innit ?

Yep, it is good and we should not lose sight of the positives. I also know, including within my extended family, that many of those who say they are christians have been reared as such and never given a thought to what they are supposed to believe. I had a bit of fun at Christmas when I asked a christian, who believed the bible (KJ Version), was inerrant and literally true as it was "the word of God." I asked if she could explain where Adam's sons found women to mother their children. She replied, looking satisfyingly bemused, "I never thought of that but there must be an answer." The answer was not provided.

[Eternal]

Broga wrote

Yep, it is good and we should not lose sight of the positives.

Very true. It is easy to become disillusioned, especially when frequenting sites such as this, with all the dumb fucktardery out there being constantly posted, but sites as specific as these will always attract the most fervent of the deluded.

People do seem to either be accepting this stance more, and as you correctly point out, more and more just couldn't give a fuck, I think that a large percentage of christians would stop calling themselves such if they were presented with the correct information, but just go with what they were bought up with as it has no direct impact on there life. Religion currently, in my opinion, is like a cornered animal, and the most violent and desperate moves will come towards the end, out of desperation and self preservation.

[Kinich Ahau]

Eternal, I think you are spot on, and we are actually starting to see it now. The internet has been a very useful part of the process and a great help in accelerating the inevitable.

[Stargazer]

Broga wrote

She replied, looking satisfyingly bemused, "I never thought of that but there must be an answer." The answer was not provided.

This is exactly what I'm talking about:

1. She never had even thought about the obvious reproduction problem

2. She assumes there must be an answer. Why?


And there are a lot of very smart people out there who seem to have this same intellectual disconnect.


My own mother and sister included.

[Broga]

Kinich Ahau wrote

Eternal, I think you are spot on, and we are actually starting to see it now. The internet has been a very useful part of the process and a great help in accelerating the inevitable.

The Internet has been a big factor in the spread of rational comments on religion. Before the Internet the ability to censor opinions critical of religion was so much easier. With widespread, and indeed near automatic, brain washing of children (and that happened to me) only those who read books were likely to start questioning. And often those books were fairly intense and often hard going. Very different from the works of, for example, Dawkins, Hitchens and Sam Harris. Today the less literate, and often semi literate, are most likely to go along with religious belief. In fact, often the most ignorant and unread are those most likely to become furious, and sometimes violent, when their faith is questioned.

[Stargazer]

Broga wrote

furious, and sometimes violent, when their faith is questioned.

It's this vehemence that underscores the near unbreakable grip people have on their beliefs, in spite of the obvious illogic and inconsistency. And, it leads to responses that are way out of proportion to anything that is seen as "threatening."

I find it difficult to comprehend.

[Eternal]

Very true, the less read they are, the shakier the foundations of their beliefs, the more they feel the need to defend them, most often because they have no other points of reference as a means of self defence.

[divine zombie]

Broga wrote

they believe they have become cannibals eating flesh and and drinking blood. The "real" flesh, which I would think would be limited to what is in the "real" body provides an infinite supply.

Some of them get really stuffy about that issue.

I was recently pointing out to an rc that you could get a jeebus DNA sample if you pocketed a wee bit of wafer/flesh.

He was not amused.

Broga wrote

I assume they also welcome Ratzi wearing his Gucci fashion items, heavily brocaded and covered in designer created frocks.

Come on, Papa's got style.....