06-09-2007, 11:17 PM
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#46
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I Live Here
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Around the way
Posts: 12,641
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Quote:
HomoCyclist wrote
Sorry Irr, I was trying to be ironic, kind of....it probably came out wrong. I think we all should have the same rights and obligations in the society. I think men, women, gay, straight, bi, transexuals, all races, all cultures, all people in the world should be treated equally.
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My bad. The sentiments certainly seemed out of character for you. Guess I should have gone with my first instinct that said you were, indeed, being ironical.
"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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06-10-2007, 12:12 AM
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#47
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Guest
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Quote:
calpurnpiso wrote
Wait. We do not know WHY a person becomes gay?..of course we do. The reason is, since we humans are bisexual by nature, the enticing libido appeasing manifestations of the Lord and Savior Penis-Christ is too strong to be rejected and since it is so natural ( specially to atheist) it has to be enjoyed to the fullest. Heterosexual life is too limited, monotonous and lethargic. After all females do not have a joy stick like men do but Christ-psychotics in their delusional stupor love to stick to the monotonous and lacking, but god condoning straight life style. Variety is always the spice of life....:)
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I like you analogy. :cheers:
Variety is always good indeed, but some of us prefer steak instead of fish. You are the kind that has that especial sexual palate that can taste all flavours and be satisfied and satisfy the sexual companion. I envy you, you must certainly get much more fun than I ever do.
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06-10-2007, 05:56 AM
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#48
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still unsmited
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,661
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Quote:
nkb wrote
Gnosital,
OK, this may be some stupid questions, but your explanation triggered them, so it's your fault:
1. Do men have dormant mammary glands, which can be activated through the right combination of hormones? Or are you talking about hormones applied in the development cycle of the fetus? Or at some other stage?
2. Whether a fetus is male or female is determined by the chromosomes (XY and YY?), but the hormones are still required to develop things like genitalia, right? Trouble with the hormones is what causes hermaphrodites and such? Intelligent Design, my ass.
Please slap me down if I am being really stupid.
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No slapping necessary.. unless of course you like that kind of thing.... :P
There are few references to this available on the nets, and even fewer that are reputable science resources. I think this one sums up what I know on the subject pretty well.
Males DO have mammary glands and males do produce the hormones necessary to induce lactation, but usually don't produce those hormones in great enough quantities to be milk factories. That the physiology supports lactation is indisputable; newborn males and females sometimes lactate tiny amounts called "witches milk" after some medieval superstitious xian nonsense, but the fact is it's due to the high levels of maternal circulating estrogens. The newborn's liver can't metabolize the hormones that cross the placenta prior to birth, and so the hormones hang around long enough to affect the tissues. Adolescent males can develop breast tissue and occasionally lactate (much to their chagrin, I suspect) in a condition called gynecomastia, which is due to the uneven ratios of androgen/estrogen production during the pubescent activational period. Sometimes adult males can lactate after experiencing extreme conditions that suppress androgen production (like physical or emotional stress, starvation or maybe even increases in hormones like oxytocin associated with nurturing and stuff). And of course hormone treatments that suppress androgen activity and increase estrogen activity can induce lactation in males. So the answer to your first question is a qualified yes at any point in the lifespan. Why substantial amounts of milk aren't produced in phenotypic males even with hormone treatment has probably more to do with the developmental organization of tissue and metabolism over the lifetime.
As for your second question, yes, the 23rd chromosome pair initiates the process of sexual differentiation, and yes hormones do play crucial roles in the development of a "normal" female or male phenotype. There is more to it of course, and if I get all my grading done today I'll work on the outline (must google some good illustrations!). True hermaphroditism involves the presence of both testicular AND ovarian tissue and is extremely rare, and there is less known about how it develops. There are, however, a LOT of variations in phenotypes that are frequently confused with hermaphroditism, such as CAH and androgen insensitivity syndrome.
It is my (and other smarter peoples') contention that sexual orientation is due to tiny albeit behaviorally significant alterations in brain structures rather than genitalia during development. The alterations of the brain tissue are RELATED to the same kinds of processes that occur in cases of ambiguous genitalia, but are not nearly so extreme. Also, the brain is a different compartment from other bodily tissues, and so reacts differently, as I'll try to elucidate later.
And I couldn't agree more with your assessment of ID as an explanation for such cases.
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06-10-2007, 06:25 AM
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#49
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still unsmited
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,661
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Quote:
HomoCyclist wrote
There are several hormones that regulate the human body.
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Tru dat!
However, I have to reiterate that Cal's contention that the existence of both androgens AND estrogens in every human body equates with us all being bisexual is factually inaccurate.
Quote:
HomoCyclist wrote
Interacting with each other is a very different thing. I will try to explain in a simple, easy and kind of personal way so we understand each other. You all know I'm a lesbian, but I look 100% like a woman, I act like one, and I certainly want men to be polite around me and respect me as a woman, because I am a woman, who just happens to prefer the companionship of another woman, along with sexual attraction of course. But my hormones are still very much estrogens and progesterone. When they are low I feel like crap, (-I'm 45 and sufferinf menopause :mad:-), so I don't think that I am a lesbian because my female hormones were low since I was born or because I have more testosterone than estrogens. Believe me, that is not the case. I've had patients, female heterosexual patients who haven't been able to get pregnant because they have high levels of testosterone and they have hirsutism and other masculine characteristics, but they still 100% heterosexual.
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Exactly right, Señorita Doctora HC! As for the patients you've seen with excessive androgen activity, that is a perfect example of the difference between organizational and activational hormonal effects. Excessive androgen activity during gestation or soon after might organize the brain differently, thereby having significant effects on sexual orientation. Excessive androgen activity later in life, such as during or after puberty can change the activation of peripheral tissues without changing the structures of the brain. Sexual orientation is without a doubt determined by the way the brain works. The difficulty in understanding the origins of brain structure and function is because the brain is plastic; it can be changed by experience. So a brain that is organized in one way during prenatal or early postnatal development CAN be changed significantly by extreme physical or emotional experiences later in life. Judging the relative contributions of prenatal vs. postnatal life experiences after the fact in a human is like trying to separate the eggs from the milk after cake has already been baked. We can only estimate.
Quote:
HC wrote
So, what makes us gay, lesbian, bisexual, straight?
It's simple......I don't know.
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I'd say it's fairly complicated, and I don't know, but we do know a LOT about it and there is no doubt in my mind that we will figure it out before long. (With NO help at all from the xian assclowns!)
Quote:
HC wrote
But it's very interesting to talk about it and I appreciate that Gnosital brought this up. Like always, I bow to you, my friend. :bow:
.....and let's keep talking about it. :thumbsup:
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Thanks, HC! The props are mutual~! :bow:
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06-10-2007, 06:26 AM
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#50
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still unsmited
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,661
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Quote:
Egotistical Atheist wrote
Excellent discussion. I think I found a great forum.
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Indeed you did, EA! Nice to meet you.
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06-10-2007, 06:32 AM
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#51
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still unsmited
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,661
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Quote:
Rat Bastard wrote
Quote:
Professor Chaos wrote
Quote:
Rat Bastard wrote
Cal, if I ever get to a point where I consider visiting the "cave of creation" monotonous, I'll go fellate a .38 Colt. Feel free to do as you please, though.
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Is it safe to assume you're not married?
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Oh, I'm married, that's why it's not any more monotonous than my right hand. Just remember how seldom it is.... :/
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You guys are hilarious.
Penises can get kind of monotonous as well, you know.
On second thought, I have met two or three of them that would have been sufficiently entertaining for a very very long time.... *sigh*....
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06-10-2007, 06:42 AM
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#52
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Guest
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Quote:
Gnosital wrote
Quote:
Rat Bastard wrote
Quote:
Professor Chaos wrote
Is it safe to assume you're not married?
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Oh, I'm married, that's why it's not any more monotonous than my right hand. Just remember how seldom it is.... :/
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You guys are hilarious.
Penises can get kind of monotonous as well, you know.
On second thought, I have met two or three of them that would have been sufficiently entertaining for a very very long time.... *sigh*....
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But, in the end, it's just going to be another prick.....
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06-10-2007, 07:16 AM
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#53
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still unsmited
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,661
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Quote:
Irreligious wrote
Perhaps, we're mislabeling people? Maybe there are distinct kinds of gay people, and the easiest ones to identify and label are the ones who share behavioral traits and an aesthetic sense that we normally equate with the opposite gender. I'm wildly speculating here, because I don't have a clue what makes one gay.....
I guess my point is that, even though there are technically only two sexes, human sexuality may be too richly layered to really look at it from a gay/straight paradigm.
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Right! I don't think labels are at all helpful (or fair) in dealing with individuals, they are only helpful for communicating effectively about complex ideas. Human sexuality consists of an extremely complex behavioral repertoire, and is multi-determined. Hormones play a role in sexual motivation, but so do environmental factors.
One aspect of sexuality that is often overlooked is the fact that it is not motivated by need so much as it is motivated by opportunity. Most people assume that if you haven't had sex in a while, the "need" for it increases proportionally to the length of time of deprivation, which is not true. In fact, the longer one goes without, the less libido one has. However, if an opportunity for sex arises (so to speak) then motivation to engage in sexual activity increases. Sexual motivation is better described in terms of incentive rather than as a need-based drive. In physiology, this phenomenon is called the “Coolidge Effect” after an oft-told and much valued urban legend in physio psych. It goes like this:
Calvin Coolidge was touring a chicken farm in the midwest with the first lady. He was totally into the chicken particulars and was falling behind as he talked chicken with the farmers. Mrs. Coolidge was eager to get out of there and so moved ahead of the president with her tour guide. At one point as she was passing a hen yard she noticed a rooster busily getting down to chicken bidness with one of the hens. As a wistful look came over her face, she asked the farmer in attendance how many times a day did the rooster have sex with the hens? To which the perplexed farmer replied “Why, dozens of times a day Mrs. First Lady, ma’am.” To which Mrs. Coolidge replied, “Really? I want you to be sure to tell that to Mr. Coolidge when he comes by!” and she went on her way.
Eventually the president made his way to the same hen yard wherein the rooster was still knocking spurs with one of the hens. The farmer dutifully mentioned that the first lady had asked him to relate to the president the interesting fact that the rooster has sex dozens of times a day. To which Calvin Coolidge replied, “Really? Does he have sex with the same hen every time?” to which the reply was “Well, no, he has sex with a different hen every time!” So Calvin said, “Tell THAT to Mrs. Coolidge.”
This phenomenon is very easy to observe in all animal species. Just go to a bar on a Friday night.
(I think I told this story before somewhere around here…)
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06-10-2007, 07:17 AM
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#54
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still unsmited
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,661
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Quote:
Rat Bastard wrote
But, in the end, it's just going to be another prick.....
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Not in MY end, dearie!
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06-10-2007, 07:26 AM
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#55
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I Live Here
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Around the way
Posts: 12,641
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Quote:
Gnosital wrote
Quote:
Rat Bastard wrote
But, in the end, it's just going to be another prick.....
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Not in MY end, dearie!
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Priceless. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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06-10-2007, 07:37 AM
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#56
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still unsmited
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,661
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Quote:
Irreligious wrote
Now, I am lacking any personal experience with feeling like I was born trapped in the wrong body, but I think I can understand the concept. That would be a gender identity issue, which is distinct from sexual orientation. Though the two often go hand-in-hand, apparently they don't always.* So if one is a straight guy who feels he should have been born a female and has gender reassignment surgery, it only makes sense (to me, anyway) that that person's sexual orientation would stay the same. So, she, in her brand new body, would now be a lesbian. That pretty much describes the two people with whom I am acquainted and they're both lovely people. Well, one is. The other is a bit of a bitch, but she also was a bitch when was she was a straight man sleeping with women.
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Transgendered people are fascinating as aspects of their brain physiology differ from that of both heterosexual males AND homosexual males.
For example, an area of the basal forebrain called the the BNST (bed nucleus of stria terminalis) is a brain region associated with sexual IDENTITY but not sexual orientation. The region is large in hetero- and homosexual males, small in heterosexual females, and also smaller than normal in transsexual males. Less is known (of course) about transsexual females.
Before the days of transgender surgery, these people were sometimes known to self-mutilate because of the loathing of their own genitals associated with the intense sense of being trapped inside the "wrong" body gender.
That crazy bastard gawd sure has a sick sense of humor.
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06-10-2007, 07:58 AM
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#57
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Guest
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Quote:
Gnosital wrote
Quote:
Rat Bastard wrote
But, in the end, it's just going to be another prick.....
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Not in MY end, dearie!
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Double entendre, set and match. :lol:
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06-10-2007, 08:16 AM
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#58
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I Live Here
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Around the way
Posts: 12,641
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Quote:
Rat Bastard wrote
Quote:
Gnosital wrote
Quote:
Rat Bastard wrote
But, in the end, it's just going to be another prick.....
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Not in MY end, dearie!
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Double entendre, set and match. :lol:
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OK. Dr. Renee Richards is up next.
"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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06-10-2007, 08:44 AM
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#59
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Guest
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OK, do you have a pic of someone who has had an "addadictome"?
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06-10-2007, 11:53 AM
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#60
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Guest
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Quote:
Gnosital wrote
Transgendered people are fascinating as aspects of their brain physiology differ from that of both heterosexual males AND homosexual males.
For example, an area of the basal forebrain called the the BNST (bed nucleus of stria terminalis) is a brain region associated with sexual IDENTITY but not sexual orientation. The region is large in hetero- and homosexual males, small in heterosexual females, and also smaller than normal in transsexual males. Less is known (of course) about transsexual females.
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That is very interesting Gnosital.
Could you help me to understand more about it, friend?
So the BNST is the part of the brain that has been associated with sexual identity, which would be like me for example, I identify myself as a woman, so my BNST is large like in hetero and homosexual males I assume, right? But if I really wanted to be a male and wanted the whole surgical transformation then...quoting you "less is known about it- of course", because most scientists -the male ones- dedicate their studies to investigate primarily male issues first....and women issues at the end....(probably when they get bored they get to the female cerebral tissue they have frozen in their lab fridge for years, eh?}
Now, what region of the brain has been associated with sexual orientation that you know of?
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