11-19-2006, 11:46 AM
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#1
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Guest
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I'm currently writing a presentation on the validity of religion in modern western society. As a sort of example i wrote a small hypothetical scenario that embodies my opinion of the place of religion in a developing society. Time restraints prevented me from going into precise detail so a little bit of imagination is required on the part of the reader to grasp the intent of the piece.
******
"Imagine yourself* born into a prehistoric world. Your very first memory is of the cold darkness of the cavern in which your community dwells. Every day is a struggle for survival. Life expectancy is extremely low and only the toughest individuals even make it past their teens. Life is very much governed by the fear of death. You grow to despise yourself and your community as you realize the lack of control that anyone has over their own destiny and the destiny of their species. You observe the world around you and find that human beings are at par with everything else in nature, this gnaws at you as you can see that your species is capable of so much more- it is capable of dominion over nature. The ambition you have sets you aside from the rest of your suffering species. You are alienated by your own ambition, and made to feel like an outsider. Finally one day you snap. You turn your back on the world that you know so little about and begin to mentally re-create it as you would see fit. You replace the most unbearable features of your reality with others that conform to your wishes. In your new world man reigns supreme. There is certainty of happiness and protection against suffering in your delusional remoulding of reality. You in turn find out that you are not alone in your desire for such a world and soon you have people living along side you in your delusional reality-although you would no longer call it delusional as you now have people living by these new set ideals.You now are the founder of mankind's very first religion, congratulations. 'The religions of mankind can be classed among the mass-delusions of this kind. No one, needless to say, who shares a delusion ever recognizes it as such.'"
******
In this I am assuming that "You" are born way ahead of your time, although i'm sure that there are many of us who would not fit this picture.
I realize that this isn't much of a hook for a presentation, however, opinions would be appreciated.
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11-19-2006, 12:53 PM
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#2
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Inklandia
Posts: 3,389
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Uh, hey. Who are you, what brings you to the ra, etc.? And, uh, welcome, I guess.
I think your build up is unnecessary. Religion is created every day by children who can't deal with the ugly reality of death and the fleshiness of their existence.
If religion were based on facts, it would be called science, and no one would believe it. -- Stephen Colbert
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11-19-2006, 02:16 PM
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#3
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Guest
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I'm just a highschool student trying to meet a deadline on an assignment. I wouldn't describe myself as a raving "atheist" because i havent really researched the full meaning of the word, however, i do recognize this site as a congregation of rational thinkers (for the most part) with knowledge that may perhaps benefit the purposes of my assignment.
Don't get me wrong though, i do plan on contributing my two cents as well... but for now, i'm overly busy. Uh, thanks for the welcome...i guess
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11-19-2006, 03:54 PM
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#4
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Guest
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welcome sparrow.
about this "developing society"...is it supposed to be early man or societies of currently "developing" nations?
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11-19-2006, 08:32 PM
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#5
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Guest
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Welcome Sparrow.
Enjoy your stay.
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11-19-2006, 08:55 PM
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#6
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I Live Here
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 23,211
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Welcome.
Yours is an interesting scenario. Since we often suggest that religion is just made up by people, many of us would find your ideas quite plausible. The hitch I see is your apparent assumption that the people are all miserable, but are fairly benign toward each other. If I am correct in this, it is a little unrealistic. In a group of people, all trying to get enough to eat and an occasionally dry place to sleep, the stronger invariably take the most and the best of whatever is available. They are the bullies. Soon the rest of the people are working for the bully instead of being killed or injured so he can steal/take their stuff. When contact is made with other tribes, they get absorbed or, more likely, their bully and yours fight. As things get more sophisticated, the people help to fight off invaders and the bully becomes a leader, a hero, a governor. There are still things that the group cannot overcome, storms, disease and such so the hero, to keep up his status, must take credit to himself when the storm abates or the disease runs its course. Being a warrior and a shaman are unusual talents in one person so a shaman specialist can come along and share the governing duties. The shaman, to be considered wise must not ever say "I don't know". In effect this would be a primitive form of the natural separation of church and state in these two individuals. After a generation or two, it is normal for the reputation of the old heroes to be expanded in grandeur for bragging to the other tribes as well as to answer those vexing questions like "where does lightening come from". "It comes from Thor's hammer”, they will answer. The rest is prehistory.
I strongly suspect that all of the older gods were once real powerful men who were looked-up to and revered for their prowess. I also think that the beginnings of religion were primarily aggrandizement of these men to mythic extents.
By this formula, YHVH was probably a very vigorous guy with a great reputation in warfare who lived perhaps 5 to 20 generations before Abraham and providing the author of the Pentateuch with an existing mythology to plagiarize copy concoct develop the story.
This is not cut into stone. Don't take it as a fully researched thesis, just the opinion of an observer. Opinion, I have in great supply so, if you run short of your own, just ask.
"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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11-19-2006, 09:30 PM
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#7
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Guest
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Nice work, both of you. Each have some valid points.
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11-20-2006, 07:58 AM
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#8
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Guest
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Sparrow, welcome to the forum.
I know you said you’re a bit busy right now but once you have time you might enjoy reading Treaties on the Gods by H.L. Mencken. His view on the origin or religion is similar to your but fleshed out a bit more. It’s a good read.
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11-20-2006, 08:03 AM
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#9
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 9,775
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ahhhhhhhh, mencken!!!
great dude.........
One of the most irrational of all the conventions of modern society is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected....That they should have this immunity is an outrage. There is nothing in religious ideas, as a class, to lift them above other ideas. On the contrary, they are always dubious and often quite silly.
H. L. Mencken
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11-20-2006, 08:50 AM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 644
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If you really have a lot of time, you could try "The Testament of Man" by Vardis Fisher.
I agree with Sternwallow's view, and I would add that I believe the need for humans to belong to a group is rather powerful, since you need the assistance of others to rear your children, gather food and protect resources and territory. You can gain the benefits of these protections from outward expression of your subservience to group rules. One of the clear ways to do that is to participate in ritual.
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11-20-2006, 09:07 AM
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#11
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The Original Rhinoqurilla
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Somewhere Not-So-Cold with Mountains
Posts: 4,829
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Wait just a minute-You expect me to believe-That all this misbehaving-Grew from one enchanted tree? And helpless to fight it-We should all be satisfied-With this magical explanation-For why the living die-And why it's hard to be a decent human being - David Bazan
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11-20-2006, 09:18 AM
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#12
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Guest
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Quote:
Eva wrote
ahhhhhhhh, mencken!!!
great dude.........
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Quote:
H. L. Mencken wrote
As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
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He was right.
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11-20-2006, 09:50 AM
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#13
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Guest
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Quote:
EvelKnievel wrote
Quote:
Eva wrote
ahhhhhhhh, mencken!!!
great dude.........
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Quote:
H. L. Mencken wrote
As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
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He was right.
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:lol::lol: thats great!
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11-20-2006, 10:04 AM
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#14
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Guest
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Quote:
Just Us Chickens wrote
:lol::lol: thats great!
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I'm not too familiar with his work but Wikiquote has some good stuff (religion is near the bottom):
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/H._L._Mencken
Eva, do you have any good Mencken links? I've loved your last couple signatures.
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11-20-2006, 10:19 AM
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#15
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Guest
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I'm actually reading Nietzsche for idiots (The Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche by H.L. Mencken) right now. Mencken has a nice writing style and it makes the information a lot easier for me to retain than the directly translated Nietzsche texts.
I recommend it for anyone interested in a nice little intro book.
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