Is calpurnpiso right?

Summarizing phrases from cal's argument: Christians lack the "healthy brain [which] knows people can not resurrect or be created with mud and ribs." So Christians (and, I assume, other believers) are "infected by this neurological anomaly" "that makes the brain accept delusions as if they were reality!" Hence, Christ-psychosis.

But is it an infection? Rather than being biologically contagious, it seems to be merely socially communicable, perpetuated by generations of happy sufferers.

Instead of a "Borna type virus" compromising brain function, I suggest that religious belief is an analog of post-traumatic stress disorder. PTSD displays biological and behavioral changes, but they are the result of the condition, not the cause of it. Same with Christ-psychosis, except that would be pre-traumatic stress disorder -- the future trauma being death.

Pre-TSD would also explain why religious psychosis, unlike every other disease I can think of, afflicts the majority. And if it's not an infection, there's no question of developing antibodies, or any antigen or other medical remedy. The only cure is accepting a soulless death as the natural end of every organism's life.

may be??? :lol:

[calpurnpiso]

HMS Beagle wrote

Summarizing phrases from cal's argument: Christians lack the "healthy brain [which] knows people can not resurrect or be created with mud and ribs." So Christians (and, I assume, other believers) are "infected by this neurological anomaly" "that makes the brain accept delusions as if they were reality!" Hence, Christ-psychosis.

But is it an infection? Rather than being biologically contagious, it seems to be merely socially communicable, perpetuated by generations of happy sufferers.

Instead of a "Borna type virus" compromising brain function, I suggest that religious belief is an analog of post-traumatic stress disorder. PTSD displays biological and behavioral changes, but they are the result of the condition, not the cause of it. Same with Christ-psychosis, except that would be pre-traumatic stress disorder -- the future trauma being death.

Pre-TSD would also explain why religious psychosis, unlike every other disease I can think of, afflicts the majority. And if it's not an infection, there's no question of developing antibodies, or any antigen or other medical remedy. The only cure is accepting a soulless death as the natural end of every organism's life.

Well, we know that we think with our brain and not all brains are equal. Some, because of genetics, are prone to disease or can not "see" clearly. Let's compare our organ for thinking with our organ for seeing. What would happen if because of a gene defect a person with retina pigmentosa starts to loose his eyesight looking at images in a distorted way so a coyote going after a pet poodle, killing him, will appear as labrador retriever playing with another dog!

We are not born with information filled brains. They are brand new bio-computers that must be fed with information to experience life and survive it. Some of these computers ( due to gene) are either diseased, malformed or defective. The acceptance of absurd delusions as if they were reality ( a condition of a normal child's brain) is view in adults as a form of mental retardation, disease or the use of drugs. All religious beliefs are based on absurd myths accepted as tangible realities. In a normal healthy brain, EDUCATION which will help this organ tell the DIFFERENCE between the logical and irrational, can cure the brain from the delusions of childhood and the sea of religious psychosis which surrounds him/her. It is a FACT that ALL nations, tribes, natives groups in the world (no exception) are infected by religious beliefs. This clearly shows that Religious-psychosis is innate in the human brain, which IMHO, contributed to the evolution of this organ for millions of years. Religious-psychosis provided ALL of the answers! Today, as our appendix help us diggest certain foods millions of years ago, religious-psychosis "answer-all" delusions is NOT NEEDED today! Science provides many answers today and as time passes more answers! It is an evolving thing.

Religious-psychosis has already ALL the ANSWERS!...lol.. So, perhaps genetics, a virus or a pathogen, yet to be discovered is what causes the brain to be so blind as to create its own reality, for it can't see the tangible truths presented before it which are based on logic and reason. I use the Borna Virus as a possible cause of R-Psychosis, since we know it causes depression. We also know viruses mutate making the same virus cause different diseases and since the cause of mental illness is unknown, making the vast majority of them idiopathic, it is reasonable to refer to those people that accept irrational puerile delusions as if they were based on tangible reality as mentally retarded, challenged or insane.

How can anyone refer to the believer in the absurd , the mythological idiocies of religion and other puerile delusional beliefs, as "sane" or mentally healthy doesn't make sense to me.........:)

That's certainly a full statement of your thesis--again. I was rather hoping, though, that you'd respond to my alternate theory: that R-psychosis may be a closer analog of PTSD than of Borne Virus. You never even mention PTSD in your reply.

[calpurnpiso]

We must take into account the brilliant concept of memes postulated by Dawkins. The virus
( programs) of the brain. My view is that it is not a program but a physical neurological anomaly in our biological computers that causes the workings of the brain to go bezerk embracing delusions as reality....:)

Can you think of another virus or neurological anomaly which afflicts the majority of humans, in every culture, in every environment, no exceptions? And which has no biological markers (so far as I can determine)? And which has sufferers who are so high-functioning that the anomaly is all but irrelevant to their abilities to earn a living, reproduce, raise children, become educated, etc.-- i.e., live a normal life?

In fact, if the anomaly is more common than not, aren't we-- atheists--the abornmal ones? Which, by one definition of disease ("A condition or tendency, as of society, regarded as abnormal and harmful"), makes us the afflicted ones.

[calpurnpiso]

HMS Beagle wrote

That's certainly a full statement of your thesis--again. I was rather hoping, though, that you'd respond to my alternate theory: that R-psychosis may be a closer analog of PTSD than of Borne Virus. You never even mention PTSD in your reply.

Sorry, I tend to repeat myself...

Well, I don't believe PSTD can do too much to disabilities of a brains that have been born with the "Delusions as reality propensity" for PTSD is define as:

"Posttraumatic Stress Disorder, or PTSD, is a psychiatric disorder that can occur following the experience or witnessing of life-threatening events such as military combat, natural disasters, terrorist incidents, serious accidents, or violent personal assaults like rape. People who suffer from PTSD often relive the experience through nightmares and flashbacks, have difficulty sleeping, and feel detached or estranged, and these symptoms can be severe enough and last long enough to significantly impair the person's daily life. "

..what I'm saying is that if a child accepts the Tooth Fairy ( a delusion ) as real, he is normal, but if he grows up and at 20 years of age accepts the same as real, he could be diagnosed as sufering from mental illness. Of course PTSD can create an impact in any Christ-psychosis free brain or one infected by it.

One example of PTSD is Martin Luther in 1540's. The man is walking by a field going to a nearby town during a thunderstorm. Lightning almost hit him. He promise to god that if he would be spare, he'd dedicate his life to him by joining an Augustinian monastery. So, why did he choose to do this? Did the man have a normal brain? I don't think so since his writings clearly show, he was delusional. It is as if today a person would found a religion base in UFO abductions ( Rael ). What about if instead of Luther the man walking was someone like Giordano Bruno, whom the Church burned for his advance scientific beliefs? Would have his brain succumbed to superstitious idiocies?..I doubt it. People do not use their neurological disorders ( religious beliefs), the disorder uses them to behave so crazy and have such irrational thoughts.

Since I view religious beliefs as a form of neurological disorder. It is absurd to think people use religion as an excuse for their insane behavior...:)

[calpurnpiso]

HMS Beagle wrote

Can you think of another virus or neurological anomaly which afflicts the majority of humans, in every culture, in every environment, no exceptions? And which has no biological markers (so far as I can determine)? And which has sufferers who are so high-functioning that the anomaly is all but irrelevant to their abilities to earn a living, reproduce, raise children, become educated, etc.-- i.e., live a normal life?

In fact, if the anomaly is more common than not, aren't we-- atheists--the abornmal ones? Which, by one definition of disease ("A condition or tendency, as of society, regarded as abnormal and harmful"), makes us the afflicted ones.

Mental retardation, hydrocephalia and many other brain disorders has been affecting us since our evolution for millions of years..but remember the CAUSE remains unknown.These diseases are idiopathic. So, it is obvious the symptoms of those under religious psychosis are not much different to those people suffering from schizophrenia or temporal lobe epilepsy...but what causes them to be so insane?..the cause is not yet known but with time it will be. It is my hipothesis it is a virus, similar to the one that causes depression. Borna. This has nothing to do with PSTD...:)

I'm suggesting is that R-psychosis is a pre-traumatic stress disorder. The trauma is in the future-- and it's the Big One, the Mother of All Traumas: death. That would explain why people are willing to suspend disbelief and accept as tangible ideas like resurrection and talking snakes, because it leads them away from the trauma of the nothingness of an uncaring universe, toward belief in a Creator, a soul, an afterlife --whatever opiate works for them.

Do you predict medical science will find a biological marker that identifies a pathogen that causes religious delusion? And if so, should it be cured? Because if it's in the majorityof people, doesn't natural selection suggest that it's a good thing?

[Philboid Studge]

HMS Beagle wrote

Summarizing phrases from cal's argument: Christians lack the "healthy brain [which] knows people can not resurrect or be created with mud and ribs." So Christians (and, I assume, other believers) are "infected by this neurological anomaly" "that makes the brain accept delusions as if they were reality!" Hence, Christ-psychosis.

But is it an infection? Rather than being biologically contagious, it seems to be merely socially communicable, perpetuated by generations of happy sufferers.

Instead of a "Borna type virus" compromising brain function, I suggest that religious belief is an analog of post-traumatic stress disorder. PTSD displays biological and behavioral changes, but they are the result of the condition, not the cause of it. Same with Christ-psychosis, except that would be pre-traumatic stress disorder -- the future trauma being death.

Pre-TSD would also explain why religious psychosis, unlike every other disease I can think of, afflicts the majority. And if it's not an infection, there's no question of developing antibodies, or any antigen or other medical remedy. The only cure is accepting a soulless death as the natural end of every organism's life.

It's posts like this that keep me here. HMS's out-of-the-box thinking -- religious belief as an expression of 'pre-trauma' -- is frigging brilliant. What it illuminates, among other things, is that all religions have at their core one function: to assuage the fear of death.

While it's fun to watch HMS and Cal go at it like Freud and Jung, perhaps there's a way to reconcile their theoretical differences -- some grand unified theory that can incorporate elements of Pre-TSD and X-psychosis. I say the discussion is meaningless without a serious thanatological exploration. It is a great irony that the thing we cannot accept as real is the one thing that happens to everyone.

Philboid Studge wrote

It's posts like this that keep me here. HMS's out-of-the-box thinking -- religious belief as an expression of 'pre-trauma' -- is frigging brilliant. What it illuminates, among other things, is that all religions have at their core one function: to assuage the fear of death.

I suppose we could always ask our resident theists--

If there were no heaven or hell, or *any* afterlife for that matter, would you still worship God? Why or why not?

I suppose IQ is unrelated to this disease?

Philboid, I'm humbled by your response, and can I please be Jung?

I agree with cal about there being an R-psychosis, but tell me more about how my Pre-TSD theory can be reconciled with cal's virus-in-the-brain theory? I mean, since I doubt that religious delusions are caused by microorganism, though I agree it's a brain dysfunction.

I do confess to seeing a possible flaw in my own theory: It presumes that atheists don't fear death, hence their immunity to R-psychosis. And it's true that a lot of us (atheists) show bravado when discussing dying, but I'm not sure we're being honest. Are we really less afraid than theists?

WigWam, yeah, IQ is unrelated. Even people with high IQ's can be terrified of death. Mozart was; hence Don Giovanni, and his Requiem.

Atheists may fear death, but they just don't think that any rites, rituals, dieties, etc. will be of much help.

Agreed. Rites, rituals, etc., are helpful when other people die, for mourning purposes. But after we ourselves kick-- useless.

But my questions stand:
1. Do others agree with cal's theory that religious belief is a form of psychosis?
2. If so, what in your opinion causes it? A microorganism or brain anomaly (Cal)? pre-traumatic stress caused by a fear of death, which only some form of supernatural faith can assuage (mine)? Or something else? Or can, as Philboid suggests, my theory and Cal's be reconciled?