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Old 01-29-2009, 11:49 AM   #331
Kate
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NNooooooooooooooooo!!!

"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:56 AM   #332
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Not any time soon.

I mean, I'm not planning on taking the shears to 'em just yet. But it's inevitable I'll have to shed them eventually, even if that occurs only after I am simultaneously (and quite involuntarily) shedding the skin from my sinews, muscles and bones after death.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:09 PM   #333
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Whew!

"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:12 PM   #334
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"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:20 PM   #335
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The notions of evil and suffering are incompatible with the Abrahamic god,to whom infinite attributes have bee ascribed. (even though he is quoted several times in the Torah as accepting responsibility for evil)

Free will does not explain or justify the suffering of animals and children.

Being given a choice of "worship me or suffer eternal agony" is not free will, it's coercion,the antithesis of free will.

A major problem with dogmatic fundamtalism is its weak philosophy and theology,which often borders on the risible. I've always assumed this is because such things as crtical thought are considered irrellevant. An impression constantly reinforced by the fundies we get on this forum,including your good self.

If God created evil as you say in the Torah than it is consistent with point number 2 and point number 4.

1. Evil exists because God provides us with the freewill to choose to obey him or not obey him.

2. Maybe this world has the PERFECT amount of evil it? Think about it for a second. If you where God (in a none blasphemous way) and it was your goal to create a world in which the largest amount of people came to you FREELY than could that be accomplished if everybody always had things go the way they wanted them to go?

3. Everybody knows that trials will mold you to become a better person

3. None of us will ever know if one Evil will actually stop more evil from happening. Example - If you where Hilter's mother might you not be upset at the "Evil" God if he died in childhood? Also, look at how many people came to Christ after 9/11.

4. The purpose of life is not happiness on earth, but rather knowledge and a saving relationship with our creator

As far as animals and children are concerned. That is consistent with the second number 3

However, I will add we live in a fallen world (Christian Perspective) and a decaying world (Second Law of Thermodynamics). If everything is decaying than in order for it to be created there had to be a time where this law was not in affect. I am going to make the conjecture that the second law of thermodynamics is a result of sin (consistent with the Biblical account of creation) and was not around during creation. Ofcourse, I would need to supply arguements for creation but for the moment humor me and assume it is true for the point of Evil. This law effects everything women and children but is still a choice that we made to sin

As far as your point Being given a choice of "worshsip me or suffer eternal agony" is not free will, it's coercion,the antithesis of free will.

You have a point with this one but I would say at least you are given the choice to believe or not believe. You can either read the bible or not read it. If you where God how would YOU create a world in which people could love you freely while at the same time having justice for people who choose a path you as God feel is not right
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:24 PM   #336
Kate
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What is "god"?

"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:33 PM   #337
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You have a point with this one but I would say at least you are given the choice to believe or not believe.
How can you choose to believe? That sounds like a form of lying.

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Old 01-29-2009, 12:36 PM   #338
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Do selfless acts make a person feel better about themselves? Can selfless acts be instinctive (for example, putting yourself in danger to save your kid)?

So, if you are diagnosed with a form of cancer which kills the majority of those afflicted with it, you will not have the specialists treat you?

We will be waiting for you to link to the study (I hope it's not anti-Big Pharma biased).

Here is my Link
http://medicine.plosjournals.org/per...l.pmed.0030009

Not sure how your confidence in Cancer treatment gives you confidence in Psychological treatment. However, my cousin is dying of cancer right now (going to a benefit Saturday) if the doctors just left her alone she could have died in peace. Instead they injected her with so many drugs that she needs to get many of her bones (including her hip replaced and she is only 40) I know that that experience is not statistically significant. However, I would not jump at whatever a doctor told me without exploring all the options.

It is a stretch to say that a selfless act like putting yourself in mortal danger is worth the "feeling" you get from doing something nice. Especially if you adhere to the evolotuionary belief that we are a bag of molecules only trying to survive.
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:38 PM   #339
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we are a bag of molecules
No, no, no.

"Ugly bags of mostly water."




Sheesh.

"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:39 PM   #340
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stuff wrote
2. Maybe this world has the PERFECT amount of evil it? Think about it for a second. If you where God (in a none blasphemous way) and it was your goal to create a world in which the largest amount of people came to you FREELY than could that be accomplished if everybody always had things go the way they wanted them to go?
Just keep repeating yourself (misspellings and all); I'm sure you'll win over many converts.

This God of yours has a "goal" does It? I guess your God isn't perfect then, unlike the gods of all the other wackaloons who troll through here.

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Old 01-29-2009, 12:54 PM   #341
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[quote=stuff;542181]If God created evil as you say in the Torah than it is consistent with point number 2 and point number 4.
Quote:
1. Evil exists because God provides us with the freewill to choose to obey him or not obey him.
Why is evil necessary for free will to exist? There are plenty of things I can choose to do that has nothing to do with evil.
Quote:
2. Maybe this world has the PERFECT amount of evil it? Think about it for a second. If you where God (in a none blasphemous way) and it was your goal to create a world in which the largest amount of people came to you FREELY than could that be accomplished if everybody always had things go the way they wanted them to go?
I'm sure I could do a better job. I'd just make it so people don't feel pleasure from inflicting pain on others for one.

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3. Everybody knows that trials will mold you to become a better person

3. None of us will ever know if one Evil will actually stop more evil from happening. Example - If you where Hilter's mother might you not be upset at the "Evil" God if he died in childhood? Also, look at how many people came to Christ after 9/11.
First of all, Hitler could have been stopped without causing evil. For example, he could have been a successful painter, owing his success to a Jewish benefactor. For that matter, if I was God, I would have nipped anti-antisemitism in the bud right at the beginning, by making it perfectly clear that the Jews were in no way responsible for the crucifixion. And its arguable whether people "coming" to Christ after 9/11 was really a good thing. (Not to mention that 9/11 led to the rise of what you might call "militant" atheism as well, the slaughter of millions of innocent Iraqis, and is also to blame for our current economic downturn.)

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4. The purpose of life is not happiness on earth, but rather knowledge and a saving relationship with our creator
You mean you say the purpose of life is to be exploited by its creator. Why assume that the creator has only good on his mind? Why are you so afraid of our life either having no purpose, or that purpose only being defined by the actual liver of that life?

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As far as animals and children are concerned. That is consistent with the second number 3.
Oh really? So if an animal dies a painful death and no-one notices it, is it really consistent with #3?

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However, I will add we live in a fallen world (Christian Perspective) and a decaying world (Second Law of Thermodynamics). If everything is decaying than in order for it to be created there had to be a time where this law was not in affect. I am going to make the conjecture that the second law of thermodynamics is a result of sin (consistent with the Biblical account of creation) and was not around during creation. Ofcourse, I would need to supply arguements for creation but for the moment humor me and assume it is true for the point of Evil. This law effects everything women and children but is still a choice that we made to sin
Then I'd have to conclude that you have an overwhelmingly fucked up view of the world. Our very perception of time hinges on thermodynamics so you are essentially saying that sin had to begin as long as we experience time.

Quote:
As far as your point Being given a choice of "worship me or suffer eternal agony" is not free will, it's coercion,the antithesis of free will.

You have a point with this one but I would say at least you are given the choice to believe or not believe. You can either read the bible or not read it. If you where God how would YOU create a world in which people could love you freely while at the same time having justice for people who choose a path you as God feel is not right
Are we really given a choice? If we find your religion unconvincing, can we honestly choose to believe it? I can't choose to believe the unbelievable, I'm afraid. I'm afraid that belief in god really is never a choice anyway, so why should god really be secretive about it?

As for playing god, there are numerous things I can do that would help without eliminating free will. As I said, I'd eliminate sadism for a start. It doesn't help evil if people feel good about doing it in non-profitable ways.

"It's puzzling that Eden is synonymous with paradise when, if you think about it at all, it's more like a maximum-security prison with twenty-four hour surveillance." -Ann Druyan
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Old 01-29-2009, 01:05 PM   #342
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If everything is decaying than in order for it to be created there had to be a time where this law was not in affect. I am going to make the conjecture that the second law of thermodynamics is a result of sin (consistent with the Biblical account of creation) and was not around during creation.
Can somebody please translate this absolute fucking drivel into something resembling English. I admit to gross impatience with such crap.

Stop the Holy See men!
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Old 01-29-2009, 01:16 PM   #343
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I'll sum it up for you, Smelly:

Stuff believes in the existence of an invisible, sentient and omnipotent creator who was later born of a virgin and exhorted everyone to become Christians and later still died on a cross so that Christians could be saved from being the evil creatures he created them to be in the first place.

Doesn't matter why Stuff believes it. What is important is that nothing will dissuade him/her from believing it and insisting that others ought to, as well, under penalty of eternal torture.

Different Christian poster, same tired Christian tortured reasoning.

I intend to sit this one out.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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Old 01-29-2009, 01:19 PM   #344
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Many thanks for the splendid effort.
So I was quite right to use "drivel" & "crap"

Likewise, I'll just watch and laugh.

Stop the Holy See men!
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Old 01-29-2009, 01:24 PM   #345
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The second law of thermodynamics is a result of sin? My educators completely failed to point this out, even though there were plenty of times when it should really have come up.

This may explain certain carpet burns.

You can always turn tricks for a few extra bucks. If looks are an issue, there's the glory hole option, but don't expect more than ... tips.
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