Yes...The Old Testament Laws Still Apply

[thomastwo]

Irreligious wrote

I wonder how this one thinks we are supposed to engage his particular brand of obstinate stupidity?

No need to respond to, or even read, what I wrote. It's your choice.

Irreligious wrote

Does he seriously expect us to humor him, pretend to be as enamored of his dumb observations, non sequiturs and obfuscations as he is, and refrain from challenging him on any of them?

I have very low expectations of you in particular. I expect you to evade arguments, misunderstood simple logic and resort to insults as soon as possible.

Irreligious wrote

I suppose I need not wonder if he has ever considered extending the same courtesy that he expects here to outspoken atheists visiting his church.

If you were having a private meeting I wouldn't even think of interrupting you. But when you have a public internet forum with a section called atheist v theist I think that is a public space that invites comment.

You could close the membership of the forum to theists and then you would be able to create your own wonderful echo chamber where nobody disagrees with you.

[Davin]

thomastwo wrote

You could close the membership of the forum to theists and then you would be able to create your own wonderful echo chamber where nobody disagrees with you.

So I suppose you missed the whole argument between atheists that did not agree with eachother in the "No Morality in Christianity[...]" thread.

[thomastwo]

You're right Davin. There is disagreement between atheists on the forum. I was wrong about that.

[Irreligious]

thomastwo wrote

You could close the membership of the forum to theists and then you would be able to create your own wonderful echo chamber where nobody disagrees with you.

Or you could stop pretending to care what any atheist-- here, on this forum, or anywhere in the world-- actually thinks?

We have nothing to say to you that you would find valid. Not a thing. You know that. The only satisfaction we can offer you is to tell you that you make sense. Why do come here to demand that of any of us?

You don't make sense to us. We try to tell you why, but it obviously doesn't make sense to you.

Given that state of affairs, and after nearly 2,000 of your own postings, what else do want from the atheist posters here?

[thomastwo]

Irreligious wrote

Or you could stop pretending to care what any atheist-- here, on this forum, or anywhere in the world-- actually thinks?

I don't care

Irreligious wrote

We have nothing to say to you that you would find valid. Not a thing. You know that. The only satisfaction we can offer you is to tell you that you make sense. Why do come here to demand that of any of us?

I'm not demanding anything from you.

Irreligious wrote

You don't make sense to us. We try to tell you why, but it obviously doesn't make sense to you.

Some posts make sense. Just not yours.

Irreligious wrote

Given that state of affairs, and after nearly 2,000 of your own postings, what else do want from the atheist posters here?

I don't want anything

[Irreligious]

thomastwo wrote

Some posts make sense. Just not yours.

Whose, in particular?

[thomastwo]

Irreligious wrote

Whose, in particular?

The record is open for examination. Go and see who I've agreed with. You might start with even this thread.

[Demigod79]

thomastwo wrote

The claim of Christians is that Jesus did fulfil the law, and therefore removed the condition. And verse 17 appears to be a confirmation of that view?

How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law? As far as we know, he never did establish God's Kingdom on earth (wars are still going on, people are still dying from disease and natural disasters, and the one true God is still not worshipped by everyone). Don't you think there's a reason why so many Christians are looking to Jesus' Second Coming? That is, they expect that everything will finally be fulfilled when Jesus comes back?

[Irreligious]

thomastwo wrote

The record is open for examination. Go and see who I've agreed with. You might start with even this thread.

I posed the question to you. If there is some atheist on this forum who makes sense to you, you should have no trouble pointing out who that is.

Why would you want to send me on a wild goose chase instead?

[thomastwo]

Demigod79 wrote

How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law?

I don't know exactly how, only that the plain text says that he will, and that almost all Christians agree that happened at the crucifixion. Different Christians disagree on which parts of the Law were abolished. Some say all of them were abolished. Others say the civil law and cleanliness laws only were abolished. You could look up dispensationalist and covenant theology if you want to know more.

Demigod79 wrote

As far as we know, he never did establish God's Kingdom on earth (wars are still going on, people are still dying from disease and natural disasters, and the one true God is still not worshipped by everyone).

Which is what he predicted would happen.

Demigod79 wrote

Don't you think there's a reason why so many Christians are looking to Jesus' Second Coming? That is, they expect that everything will finally be fulfilled when Jesus comes back?

I personally think that God's kingdom is both here and coming in the future. That is, Jesus' death provided the start of the coming of the kingdom. That's partly why Christians want to start helping to create just and fair societies now.

[thomastwo]

Irreligious wrote

I posed the question to you. If there is some atheist on this forum who makes sense to you, you should have no trouble pointing out who that is.

Well in this thread fiatlux and demigod have asked good questions. Davin made a good point to correct me.

You on the other hand have made no positive contribution other than to harass me.

Irreligious wrote

Why would you want to send me on a wild goose chase instead?

Because your sniping is wearing and I thought it might distract you for a moment. Squirrel!

[Irreligious]

thomastwo wrote

Well in this thread fiatlux and demigod have asked good questions. Davin made a good point to correct me.

You on the other hand have made no positive contribution other than to harass me.

Aww. Have I been harrassing the sweet, widdle preacher man? I'm sorry I interrupted your sermon. Perhaps I should leave this little chapel you set up for yourself here and seek out a sanctuary of my own. Maybe I'll call it the Raving Atheists Forum.

Yep. I think I might do that.

thomastwo wrote

Because your sniping is wearing and I thought it might distract you for a moment. Squirrel!

But you are the squirrel. You still don't get that?

This is a really dumb squirrel. Just saying.

[fiatlux]

Demigod79 wrote

How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law? As far as we know, he never did establish God's Kingdom on earth (wars are still going on, people are still dying from disease and natural disasters, and the one true God is still not worshipped by everyone). Don't you think there's a reason why so many Christians are looking to Jesus' Second Coming? That is, they expect that everything will finally be fulfilled when Jesus comes back?

You are correct demigod. The NIV makes it clear:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Hence the "til heaven and earth disappear" verbiage isn't just for dramatic effect, as T2 believes. Any believer without indoctrination and with a brain would read this as the second coming, messianic 1000 year reign, Satan bound in hell, yada yada.

[Demigod79]

thomastwo wrote

I don't know exactly how, only that the plain text says that he will, and that almost all Christians agree that happened at the crucifixion. Different Christians disagree on which parts of the Law were abolished. Some say all of them were abolished. Others say the civil law and cleanliness laws only were abolished. You could look up dispensationalist and covenant theology if you want to know more.

I don't see anything in the OT prophecies and laws that indicate that someone must die a sacrificial death to fulfill the law. I think this is just later Christian interpretation.

thomastwo wrote

I personally think that God's kingdom is both here and coming in the future. That is, Jesus' death provided the start of the coming of the kingdom. That's partly why Christians want to start helping to create just and fair societies now.

That's quite a kingdom then. In the past century alone there were two world wars, various economic crises, an earthquake big enough to tilt the earth's axis, etc. If Jesus died to bring about this world then his life was clearly wasted. I would not call this paradise on earth, would you?

fiatlux wrote

You are correct demigod. The NIV makes it clear:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Hence the "til heaven and earth disappear" verbiage isn't just for dramatic effect, as T2 believes. Any believer without indoctrination and with a brain would read this as the second coming, messianic 1000 year reign, Satan bound in hell, yada yada.

I think it's also telling that Jesus indicated very clearly that only those who adhere to the law will inherit the kingdom. I think T2 and others are reading into the passage, putting words into Jesus' mouth (this is not something that even an atheist like myself would do!).

[thomastwo]

fiatlux wrote

You are correct demigod. The NIV makes it clear:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Hence the "til heaven and earth disappear" verbiage isn't just for dramatic effect, as T2 believes. Any believer without indoctrination and with a brain would read this as the second coming, messianic 1000 year reign, Satan bound in hell, yada yada.

But everything was accomplished.

Jesus wrote

it is finished