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Old 07-15-2008, 11:45 AM   #991
w_1975
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Just a thought

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SteelCurtain wrote View Post
Talk about circular reasoning...

First of all, it is perfectly acceptable to think that the answer to the origin (if there is one) of the cosmos and the natural world does lie within the universe itself. Therefore the very first step in your little "proof" is fallible.

Second, if you claim that there had to be a creator because time, space, and matter had to start somewhere, then you have to define a creator for the creator, and a creator for that creator, and so on and so forth.

If you can't fathom the reason for something, the next logical step is investigation and testing, most certainly not a supernatural explanation. The 19th century would like its logic back...

So you believe that science will someday be able to give the answer to the question: "Why does the universe exist ?". And that it will either be: "For no reason at all" or for some other reason which exclude any kind of Creator ? But at this time the answer to this question must still be one of belief/faith ?

4 Dimensional spacetime came into existance together with the universe (matter, energy,nature,forces). Therefore when the universe did not exist, you cant talk about a beginning or ending only an eternity of nothing or an eternity in which a Creator exists which is timeless (no need to be created).

I still need to know how could the caming into existance of the universe be described as a natural event, if no nature (science, force, matter, energy) existed yet ? And if it wasn't natural, how will you ever be able to find the answer through scientific investigation and testing ?
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Old 07-15-2008, 12:00 PM   #992
Eva
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hey, w....care to introduce yourself in the, ehm, Introduce Yourself thread?

are you a theist?

One of the most irrational of all the conventions of modern society is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected....That they should have this immunity is an outrage. There is nothing in religious ideas, as a class, to lift them above other ideas. On the contrary, they are always dubious and often quite silly.
H. L. Mencken
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Old 07-15-2008, 12:15 PM   #993
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Science isn't supposed to answer the existential question of the universe. Such philosophical questions are left to man, ergo the advent of religion. I don't need an answer to "why are we here" or "what's the meaning of life." I live my life to the fullest, taking advantage of the only chance I have.

The point is that when something such as how the universe as we know it today came to be that way isn't fully understood by scientists, the default answer should not be "god". It is irrational to think that way.

A "timeless creator" is a cop-out to the question. There is no reason at all that the universe couldn't have always existed in some primordial state. Science can investigate that, and does.

Point being that the "caming into existance" of the universe is the worst way to approach the question. And again, just because we can't fathom of a way for science to explain something right now doesn't mean we should just give up and call it god. What a ridiculous cop out.
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Old 07-15-2008, 12:16 PM   #994
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w_1975 wrote View Post
So you believe that science will someday be able to give the answer to the question: "Why does the universe exist ?". And that it will either be: "For no reason at all" or for some other reason which exclude any kind of Creator ? But at this time the answer to this question must still be one of belief/faith ?

4 Dimensional spacetime came into existance together with the universe (matter, energy,nature,forces). Therefore when the universe did not exist, you cant talk about a beginning or ending only an eternity of nothing or an eternity in which a Creator exists which is timeless (no need to be created).

I still need to know how could the caming into existance of the universe be described as a natural event, if no nature (science, force, matter, energy) existed yet ? And if it wasn't natural, how will you ever be able to find the answer through scientific investigation and testing ?
Believe whatever pleases you, but you do not know that the universe was created. And, even if it was, you still do not know what it may have been that could have created it.

All anyone can do at this point in time is engage in the most spurious of speculation as regards the question, because the answer to it is unknown. For all we know, it may be completely unknowable.

Your burning desire to know the answer to the question of exactly what gave rise to it all does not override the fact that you don't know. No one does.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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Old 07-15-2008, 12:17 PM   #995
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w_1975 wrote View Post
Why does the universe exist?
There is no such thing as "why."

I will grieve. Grief is not a theistic concept. ~ Sternwallow
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:06 PM   #996
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w_1975 wrote View Post
So you believe that science will someday be able to give the answer to the question: "Why does the universe exist ?". And that it will either be: "For no reason at all" or for some other reason which exclude any kind of Creator ? But at this time the answer to this question must still be one of belief/faith ?
right now the focus is on "what" the contents of the universe are. "What" their properties are. And "how" they interact with each other. What caused the Big Bang? No one knows. What is the Big Bang? It is simply the title given to the time at which we know fuck all about what was going on. And readily admit that we know fuck all. Some current ideas may or may not turn out to be right, but it is all mere speculation-- including "God did it" I for one, prefer to simply say "I don't know"

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4 Dimensional spacetime came into existance together with the universe (matter, energy,nature,forces). Therefore when the universe did not exist, you cant talk about a beginning or ending only an eternity of nothing or an eternity in which a Creator exists which is timeless (no need to be created).
We do not even claim to understand the Universe back to a certain point in it's existance (the plank time) To claim to know anything about a "prior" to the universe is to piss in your own face.

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I still need to know how could the caming into existance of the universe be described as a natural event, if no nature (science, force, matter, energy) existed yet ? And if it wasn't natural, how will you ever be able to find the answer through scientific investigation and testing ?
You are assuming that no "forces, matter or energy" existed. You are making assumptions about things which you have no evidence for. There is simply no more good reason to assume God is eternal than to assume matter/energy is eternal.

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There is no such thing as "why."
Exist, or don't exist. There is no "why".
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:18 PM   #997
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"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:06 PM   #998
w_1975
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Hello,

I don't know whether God exists and i don't know whether he doesn't exist. Till all the universe's secrets are explained I would like/have to belief God exists. I want the universe to exist for a reason, and life to have a higher meaning, therefore i would want God to exist. When i think about the universe/nature/physics i try to find arguments in favor of God's probable existance and not his non-existance. I don't understand quantum mechanics, hidden higher dimensions etc. so with my limited capacity as a human being i am a bit carefull to dimiss God in all of this. I disagree with people that uses/misrepresent God/religion for their own motives.

I don't know what to call myself... More theist than atheist...
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:08 PM   #999
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w_1975 wrote View Post
Till all the universe's secrets are explained I would like/have to belief God exists.
yeah, and I'd like Jessica Alba to suck me off every night before I go and take a dump on my solid gold toilet.

It doesn't do me much good.

You can always turn tricks for a few extra bucks. If looks are an issue, there's the glory hole option, but don't expect more than ... tips.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:09 PM   #1000
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w_1975 wrote View Post

I don't know what to call myself...

I will grieve. Grief is not a theistic concept. ~ Sternwallow
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:28 PM   #1001
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w_1975 wrote View Post
I don't know... i don't know... I would like... I want... i would want... I don't understand...
Your humility is somewhat refreshing. Everything else is disappointing. Once you've learned to distinguish what is from you would like it to be you can start educating yourself with an open mind and start to lose some of the "don't knows". Until then, you're fucked.

One man's strawman is another man's asshole.

Last edited by Waddlie; 07-16-2008 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:33 PM   #1002
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Quote:
w_1975 wrote
I don't know whether God exists and i don't know whether he doesn't exist.
If you don't know whether or not a certain being exists, why do you assume that "he" possesses the markedly human trait of being male?

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Till all the universe's secrets are explained I would like/have to belief God exists.
Why?

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I want the universe to exist for a reason...
Why?

Quote:
...and life to have a higher meaning...
Then give your life "a higher meaning" (whatever that means to you).

Don't try to pass off the responsibility for the meaning in your life.

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...therefore i would want God to exist.
The existence of a god does not inherently give the universe a reason, or life a meaning.

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When i think about the universe/nature/physics i try to find arguments in favor of God's probable existance and not his non-existance.
That is called confirmation bias.

The honest thing to do is to evaluate the question of the existence of a god or gods in life of the evidence, not the other way around.

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I don't understand quantum mechanics, hidden higher dimensions etc. so with my limited capacity as a human being i am a bit carefull to dimiss God in all of this.
In your limited capacity as a human being, you would do well to be a bit "carefull" to accept the lazy non-answer of "God" as an explanation for "all of this."

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I disagree with people that uses/misrepresent God/religion for their own motives.
As do we all. It's a wonder the Nazis didn't ruin Christianity for everyone.

That is, however, the only purpose that gods serve. They are ideas that are used by humans to control other humans. It is impossible to "misrepresent" a god, because we do not accept any representation as being actually true: all representations are different versions of ultimately fictonal beings.

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I don't know what to call myself... More theist than atheist...
If you believe, then you are a theist.

Because you acknowledge that you do not know, you are an agnostic theist.

In truth, all people -- from the Joseph Ratzinger to Richard Dawkins -- are agnostic, because no one knows that any gods exist. What is relevant, then, is whether or not we, in that lack of knowledge, chose to accept or reject theological claims.

Acceptance is theism; rejection is atheism.

atheist (n): one who remains unconvinced.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:39 PM   #1003
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w_1975 wrote View Post
I don't know what to call myself... More theist than atheist...
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Waddlie wrote View Post
you're fucked.

"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:06 PM   #1004
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w_1975 wrote View Post
Hello,

I don't know whether God exists and i don't know whether he doesn't exist. Till all the universe's secrets are explained I would like/have to belief God exists. I want the universe to exist for a reason, and life to have a higher meaning, therefore i would want God to exist. When i think about the universe/nature/physics i try to find arguments in favor of God's probable existance and not his non-existance. I don't understand quantum mechanics, hidden higher dimensions etc. so with my limited capacity as a human being i am a bit carefull to dimiss God in all of this. I disagree with people that uses/misrepresent God/religion for their own motives.

I don't know what to call myself... More theist than atheist...
Why bother with labels? You're human being who, like all other human beings, cannot possibly know whether or not there is a supreme creator, but you'd like to think there is. I'd call you a theist who doesn't pretend to actually know whether or not there is a God, or an honest theist.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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Old 07-16-2008, 03:13 PM   #1005
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Irreligious wrote View Post
Why bother with labels? You're human being who, like all other human beings, cannot possibly know whether or not there is a supreme creator, but you'd like to think there is. I'd call you a theist who doesn't pretend to actually know whether or not there is a God, or an honest theist.
agreed.
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