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Old 05-18-2005, 03:48 PM   #31
FiberglassDolphin
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Rhinoqulous wrote
To me, they're all Christians; just the spicing is different (paprika as opposed to rosemary, etc.).
Yes! They have certain differences, but they have Christ in common.

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Chris∑tian
adj.

1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
I don't like using the dictionary for giving evidence for some things. I didn't know that last definition.
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Old 05-19-2005, 01:58 AM   #32
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That wouldn't happen to be a MW definition above would it?
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Old 05-19-2005, 02:29 AM   #33
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My family on my dad's side was Quaker, and I don't really appreciate being told that they weren't real Christians. They worshipped Christ as the son of god, and attempted to follow his teachings as laid down in the bible. I'd imagine the Jehovah's witnesses do the same thing.

Quite frankly, if belief in Christ's divinity, the bible's accuracy, and an attempt to follow Christ's teachings aren't enough to qualify you as a Christian, I can't imagine what would be.

And, as I've said before, my reading of the bible makes it seem most likely that good works can get you into heaven, as they count as a sort of Christ-worship in and of themselves. I read the gospels, and I have a hard time imagining that when judgement day comes, Christ is going to say "When I was hungry, you fed me, and when I was cold, you clothed me. You gave of yourself freely to me, but since you're a buddhist I can't let you in. Buh-bye".

Are you really going to tell me that that fits in with the rest of his actions and speeches in Luke and Matthew?
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Old 05-19-2005, 05:17 AM   #34
baric
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thomas wrote
JW - I agree they believe in salvation by works - but they are not considered part of the Christian church
Bigot

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Mormons - I agree they believe in salvation by works - but again they are not considered part of the Christian church
Bigot

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Quakers - Don't have a fixed dogma or creed, so it's possible some Friends believe in salvation by works - Not considered part of the Christian church
Bigot

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Seventh-Day Adventists - At least based on my understanding they do believe in salvation by grace not works. Do you have any information that contradicts this. I'll see if I can find a reliable source of evidence on this one.
Are you going to kick them out of the "Christian church" if they do?

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Presbyterians - Well, which presbyterian church are you talking about. Can you point to any particular information that backs up your view. I was brought up in a presbyterian church and can tell you that in my experience they teach salvation by grace.
I told you that it was a point of debate in the Presbyterian church. I asked my co-worker yesterday about it (just to be sure) and he assured me that there are plenty of Presbyterian churchs that teach salvation by works -- including his. (http://www.canyoncreekpres.org/)
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Old 05-19-2005, 07:35 AM   #35
Philboid Studge
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... they are not considered part of the Christian church
Considered by whom? thomas?

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Old 05-19-2005, 08:55 AM   #36
baric
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Philboid Studge wrote
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... they are not considered part of the Christian church
Considered by whom? thomas?
Of course. Rule #1 when your point is refuted is to change the definition of the words you were using.

Thomas has apparently decided that works-based salvation is now part of the definition of "true Christians". Therefore, his argument that no Christians support works-based salvation is now irrefutable, BY DEFINITION.
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Old 05-19-2005, 09:37 AM   #37
thomas
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baric wrote
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Presbyterians - Well, which presbyterian church are you talking about. Can you point to any particular information that backs up your view. I was brought up in a presbyterian church and can tell you that in my experience they teach salvation by grace.
I told you that it was a point of debate in the Presbyterian church. I asked my co-worker yesterday about it (just to be sure) and he assured me that there are plenty of Presbyterian churchs that teach salvation by works -- including his. (http://www.canyoncreekpres.org/)
From their website " We at CCPC seek to "Know Christ and To Make Christ Known". We recognize that God is our Creator and the sovereign Ruler of our universe, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, our Savior, and Lord of the Church and that salvation is by Godís grace alone, a free gift to believers and not earned by our own merit. We believe that God has revealed Himself and His plan of salvation to us in His Word, the Bible." (emphasis is mine)
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Old 05-19-2005, 10:00 AM   #38
Little Earth Stamper
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thomas wrote
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baric wrote
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Presbyterians - Well, which presbyterian church are you talking about. Can you point to any particular information that backs up your view. I was brought up in a presbyterian church and can tell you that in my experience they teach salvation by grace.
I told you that it was a point of debate in the Presbyterian church. I asked my co-worker yesterday about it (just to be sure) and he assured me that there are plenty of Presbyterian churchs that teach salvation by works -- including his. (http://www.canyoncreekpres.org/)
From their website " We at CCPC seek to "Know Christ and To Make Christ Known". We recognize that God is our Creator and the sovereign Ruler of our universe, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, our Savior, and Lord of the Church and that salvation is by Godís grace alone, a free gift to believers and not earned by our own merit. We believe that God has revealed Himself and His plan of salvation to us in His Word, the Bible." (emphasis is mine)
How does this jibe with the parts of the bible that say "faith without works is dead" (I believe that specific quote comes from James)? If salvation is by grace alone, how do we explain the bible's emphasis on good works (such as the passage in matthew I was referring to above that quite clearly seperates the saved from the unsaved by virtue of good works)?
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Old 05-19-2005, 10:07 AM   #39
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You are all right that the definition of the word "Christian" is important. Without a good definition anybody can claim any belief and label it Christian and that would be absurd. And you are all right that it is a hot topic of debate. So, let me explain why I hold the views I do on what Christian means.

Let's take two aspects and start from there.

(1) In my view a Christian is somebody who believes in the deity of Christ, that he was the Son of God. Seems a reasonable defintion to me.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that Jesus was the Son of God. That's why they are Jehovah's witnesses. That is why I claim they are not a Christian church.

(2) The essential doctrinal faith of the Christian church has passed unchanged from the very earliest church and creeds. So, for me, a test of the definition of a Christian is the ability to sign up to the early creeds like, for example, the Nicene Creed.

Mormons, would not sign up to the Nicene Creed for several reasons. But one would be that they believe that Jesus was created by God and not begotten. Sorry, this is diving deep into theological distinctions but is important. Another would be that they deny the concept of the Trinity.

Now for Quakers, they don't have a fixed creed or dogma ( actually they do have a dogma, that dogma's are wrong, but that's beside the point ). So, it's not possible to really say if they meet a particular definition of Christian or not. Some Quakers may believe in salvation by works whilst others do not. I was wrong and overspoke when I said earlier that they are not considered part of the Christian church. But the earlier posted claim by baric that Quakers believe in salvation by works is not correct.

I did a little more research on Seventh Day Adventists and confirmed that they do believe in salvation by grace, not by works as was claimed earlier by baric.
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Old 05-19-2005, 10:10 AM   #40
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Little Earth Stamper wrote
How does this jibe with the parts of the bible that say "faith without works is dead" (I believe that specific quote comes from James)? If salvation is by grace alone, how do we explain the bible's emphasis on good works (such as the passage in matthew I was referring to above that quite clearly seperates the saved from the unsaved by virtue of good works)?
LES, show me a christian church that meets your definition from your previous post that believe that salvation is by works alone and not by grace ? Yes, some Christian churches believe that works are required as well as grace, but none that I know of that works alone is sufficient.
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Old 05-19-2005, 10:21 AM   #41
Little Earth Stamper
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thomas wrote
You are all right that the definition of the word "Christian" is important. Without a good definition anybody can claim any belief and label it Christian and that would be absurd. And you are all right that it is a hot topic of debate. So, let me explain why I hold the views I do on what Christian means.

Let's take two aspects and start from there.

(1) In my view a Christian is somebody who believes in the deity of Christ, that he was the Son of God. Seems a reasonable defintion to me.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that Jesus was the Son of God. That's why they are Jehovah's witnesses. That is why I claim they are not a Christian church.

(2) The essential doctrinal faith of the Christian church has passed unchanged from the very earliest church and creeds. So, for me, a test of the definition of a Christian is the ability to sign up to the early creeds like, for example, the Nicene Creed.

Mormons, would not sign up to the Nicene Creed for several reasons. But one would be that they believe that Jesus was created by God and not begotten. Sorry, this is diving deep into theological distinctions but is important. Another would be that they deny the concept of the Trinity.
...
This strikes me as a bit flawed. The nicene creed was created in 381, apparently, which means that, under your definition, for nearly 400 years after Christ, there were no Christians. Morover, I have difficulty accepting a definition of Christian that holds people to a non-biblical standard. To me, Christian speculation so far removed form Christ's actual life have little bearing on, well, anything.

We could plug anything in in place of Nicene creed; any papal proclamations, the book of mormon, the gospel of thomas. It elevates the Nicene creed to a higher place then the actual bible itself. But more then that, a definition of Christianity that excludes people who worship Christ through the tool of the bible is bizzare and unwieldy.
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Old 05-19-2005, 10:32 AM   #42
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OK, so do you accept my other definitions and explanations ? Are we just down to Mormons ? If we are, I want to first point out that Mormons don't believe in salvation by works alone they believe in salvation by grace and works. That is, there is no salvation without belief in Christ. They just think that is not enough and that works are also required. They wouldn't agree with your interpretation that says that works alone are sufficient.
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Old 05-19-2005, 10:41 AM   #43
Little Earth Stamper
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thomas wrote
OK, so do you accept my other definitions and explanations ? Are we just down to Mormons ? If we are, I want to first point out that Mormons don't believe in salvation by works alone they believe in salvation by grace and works. That is, there is no salvation without belief in Christ. They just think that is not enough and that works are also required. They wouldn't agree with your interpretation that says that works alone are sufficient.
I don't know which churches believe in salvations through works alone, because frankly I don't care about what a bunch of churches think.

I'm going to have to defer to those other people who mentioned presbytarian churches that believe in works as sufficient for entrance into heaven.

But my basic point is, by a sane definition, Jehovah's Witnesses, Quakers and Mormons qualify as Christians. If some Quakers believe works are sufficient for salvation, then some christian churches believe this. Making the nicene creed a more important test for Christianity then the bible is bizarre, and quite frankly strikes me as heretical.
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Old 05-19-2005, 11:12 AM   #44
thomas
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Little Earth Stamper wrote
I don't know which churches believe in salvations through works alone, because frankly I don't care about what a bunch of churches think.
Well then, let's stop this discussion
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Old 05-19-2005, 02:55 PM   #45
baric
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thomas wrote
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baric wrote
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Presbyterians - Well, which presbyterian church are you talking about. Can you point to any particular information that backs up your view. I was brought up in a presbyterian church and can tell you that in my experience they teach salvation by grace.
I told you that it was a point of debate in the Presbyterian church. I asked my co-worker yesterday about it (just to be sure) and he assured me that there are plenty of Presbyterian churchs that teach salvation by works -- including his. (http://www.canyoncreekpres.org/)
From their website " We at CCPC seek to "Know Christ and To Make Christ Known". We recognize that God is our Creator and the sovereign Ruler of our universe, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, our Savior, and Lord of the Church and that salvation is by Godís grace alone, a free gift to believers and not earned by our own merit. We believe that God has revealed Himself and His plan of salvation to us in His Word, the Bible." (emphasis is mine)
I know what their website says. That is from the Presbyterian USA statement but, like I said, there is actually considerable debate about this within the church that they are not going to put on their website.

I have a good friend who attends that church and is a youth minister and we've had long discussions about this.

If the church eventually splits on this issue (doubtful) you'll have another denomination that you can excommunicate from the Christian faith!
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