Should we fear Islam?

Sternwallow wrote

An e-mail received today --
Now, how exactly is a devout Muslim supposed to behave when he is among diverse cultures including a high percentage of non-believers? What constitutes a "moderate" Muslim, given the above verses? Just how "peaceful" and "tolerant" are we supposed to believe Islam is?

__._,_.___

I don't see any way to view them other than murdering fanatics

[anthonyjfuchs]

Simple Mind wrote

I don't see any way to view them other than murdering fanatics

I view them exactly as I view Christians; they just believe a different mythology.

Keep in mind that the percentage of Muslims who are "murdering fanatics" is probably about the same as the percentage of Christians who are murdering fanatics. And also keep in mind that comparing modern Islam with modern Christianity is an inaccurate contrast; modern Islam is only 1400 years old, so it must be compared to 15th Century Christianity.

The real difference, obviously, is that 1400-year-old Islam has access to better weapons than 1400-year-old Christianity. That, obviously, is why Christians are so bent out of shape about Islam today. They're jealous that they didn't have nuclear weapons during the Crusades.

anthonyjfuchs wrote

I view them exactly as I view Christians; they just believe a different mythology.

Keep in mind that the percentage of Muslims who are "murdering fanatics" is probably about the same as the percentage of Christians who are murdering fanatics. And also keep in mind that comparing modern Islam with modern Christianity is an inaccurate contrast; modern Islam is only 1400 years old, so it must be compared to 15th Century Christianity.

The real difference, obviously, is that 1400-year-old Islam has access to better weapons than 1400-year-old Christianity. That, obviously, is why Christians are so bent out of shape about Islam today. They're jealous that they didn't have nuclear weapons during the Crusades.

so whats your point?

they are still murdering fanatics

if you want to start a thread about if we should fear Christians

I will respond that I view them as murdering fanatics

[anthonyjfuchs]

The point is that they're not ALL murdering fanatics. Not even MOST of them are. A miniscule fraction of them are. Maybe one tenth of one percent.

Saying that all Muslims are murdering fanatics is like saying that all humans are albinos.

Simple Mind wrote

if you want to start a thread about if we should fear Christians, I will respond that I view them as murdering fanatics

Fair `nuff.

[Kate]

Hey, Anthony! Still need a campaign manager?

[Ellanoor]

Fuck Islam, so lets go ahead and set aside the thought "oh here's the former Muslim coming to the rescue of Islam." okay? This fear you have is irrational and if you know anything about Islam, baseless. The teachings found in the Quran aren't so profound that whole civilizations would convert voluntarily at the drop of a hat at a mere reading of it nor are Islamic countries so far advanced they they will convert masses by force as they were in the past. You do know that a majority of Muslims haven't a clue what the Quran says even though they speak the verses every single day? Quoting the Quran, bad verses/good verses, is absolutely useless when it comes to the formation of a Muslim. An average Muslim does not get their knowledge of their religion from the Quran, as I said, the average doesn't even understand it - even those Muslims who speak Arabic don't understand it because while their languages changed Quranic language has remained the same. For today's Arabs, the Quran is written in the language of Shakespeare to American.

All of them need an interpreter. Every other word in the Quran is "Love me, Fear me or I'm going to get you, my pretty." The way that Islam is taught now throughout most of the Islamic world, the type of Islam that won out over enlightened thinking - and yes there was a time when their was enlightened thinking in Islamic societies - (killing/silencing the leaders or followers of those thinkers) is on a course for self-destruction or if it continues, it will remain in stagnation.

They've eliminated higher reasoning, abandoned higher forms of thought and trounced on critical thinking, that is a society, due to its own ideaology, that can't advance, it can't move forward - they've frozen knowledge to set period in time. The Islamic world is not just billions of bodies with one collective mind. The desire to learn English and the popularity and high status of American culture in most Islamic countries are astronomical - which is why the response against American culture is so LOUD by zealots because they see it happening all around them. That is why they are so loud and pushing so hard, because they see those around them slowly changing, they are trying to stem the tide, they are not at the brink of a new explosion of ideas that would convert the world enmass.

The internet is reaching tiny villages in countryside of Afghanistan, new ideas are trickling in in this way and via other means every single day. In my mind, in this situation, eventually, something has to give, and I'm thinking it won't be the desire for advancement, the yearning for knowledge. It is no longer as easy as it once was to demonize non-believers.

I spent some time in the Middle East recently and kids who couldn't speak English would speak to me via Disney channel. When they learned I was an American, they surrounded me with their curiosity and questions, language was a barrier but I understood "Jonas Brothers" and we connected. Yes, this is a tiny thing, but yeah, it matters. They actually "know" a non-believer, they like this non-believer, and as inconsequential as it may seem, that is going to matter when they put their thoughts together.

[Sternwallow]

anthonyjfuchs wrote

I view them exactly as I view Christians; they just believe a different mythology.

Keep in mind that the percentage of Muslims who are "murdering fanatics" is probably about the same as the percentage of Christians who are murdering fanatics. And also keep in mind that comparing modern Islam with modern Christianity is an inaccurate contrast; modern Islam is only 1400 years old, so it must be compared to 15th Century Christianity.

The real difference, obviously, is that 1400-year-old Islam has access to better weapons than 1400-year-old Christianity. That, obviously, is why Christians are so bent out of shape about Islam today. They're jealous that they didn't have nuclear weapons during the Crusades.

I don't understand your position. It is exactly the difference in mythologies and their application in the present that is the problem. The 1400 year old Islamic mythologies have been carefully kept untarnished by any hint of modernity. There is no Koranic equivalent of the New Improved Revised Editorialized and Bowdlerized Holy Bible.

While the Biblical text, even the NT, drips with calls to bloodletting, the Koran nearly drowns in it, as the passages I referenced show clearly. So, it must take much more will power on the part of Muslims to ignore the Koran's many killing commands than for a Christian to ignore the fewer gory parts in the Bible.

One is tempted to generalize: a Muslim who ignores the Koran makes a good neighbor.

[Sternwallow]

anthonyjfuchs wrote

The point is that they're not ALL murdering fanatics. Not even MOST of them are. A miniscule fraction of them are. Maybe one tenth of one percent.

Saying that all Muslims are murdering fanatics is like saying that all humans are albinos.

True but only part of the point. The many who are not murdering fanatics manage to do it by not being good Muslims, dedicated to obedience to the whole Koran. Same applies to Christians.

Edited: Just read Ellanoor's post. If it is true that Muslim mobs shouting "Death to infidel, death to America", have no idea what they are saying, then my mind is greatly eased.

Sternwallow wrote

True but only part of the point. The many who are not murdering fanatics manage to do it by not being good Muslims, dedicated to obedience to the whole Koran. Same applies to Christians.

the moderate in his silence and his tolerance of the fanatical ones within their religion are, imo ,as culpable in the honor killings and such as the nutters

Sternwallow wrote

Edited: Just read Ellanoor's post. If it is true that Muslim mobs shouting "Death to infidel, death to America", have no idea what they are saying, then my mind is greatly eased.

my mind is not eased, they hold as a fundamental tenet of their religion to wish death upon infidels and non believers, that would be me
as long as they keep their intolerance over their in Musland. they can do as they please

but don't bring it here

there,,in musland

oops

[anthonyjfuchs]

Sternwallow wrote

I don't understand your position.

Only that most Muslims are, as you say, "not being good Muslims," if we define a "good Muslims" are one who adheres to and acts on every line of the Qur'an.

No matter how deeply one drowns the human mind in barbaric mythology, I think there will always be a degree of higher-order thought that understands not to act on barbaric superstitions whether or not the individual actually believes them.

That being said, I don't think anyone should be surprised at the destruction being wrought by that tiny minority of Muslims who do act on the barbaric elements of their mythology. As I usually point out, Islam is 1,400 years old. Christianity was just as barbaric when it was 1,400 years old. The difference, of course, is that modern Muslims who are willing to murder have access to nuclear weapons and passenger jets instead of just swords.

Frankly, though, I think that the vast majority of Muslims are drawn instead to Sura 109:

Muhammed wrote

109:1 Say: O disbelievers!
109:2 I worship not that which ye worship;
109:3 Nor worship ye that which I worship.
109:4 And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
109:5 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
109:6 Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

If a Muslim adheres to and acts on Sura 109 by living-and-letting-live, aren't they being a good Muslim? Who says that the death-and-destruction lines should supercede the unto-you-your-religion line, or the begin-not-hostilies line (2:190), or the kill-not-one-another line (4:29)?

[Kate]

[Sternwallow]

anthonyjfuchs wrote

Only that most Muslims are, as you say, "not being good Muslims," if we define a "good Muslims" are one who adheres to and acts on every line of the Qur'an.

No matter how deeply one drowns the human mind in barbaric mythology, I think there will always be a degree of higher-order thought that understands not to act on barbaric superstitions whether or not the individual actually believes them.

That being said, I don't think anyone should be surprised at the destruction being wrought by that tiny minority of Muslims who do act on the barbaric elements of their mythology. As I usually point out, Islam is 1,400 years old. Christianity was just as barbaric when it was 1,400 years old. The difference, of course, is that modern Muslims who are willing to murder have access to nuclear weapons and passenger jets instead of just swords.

Frankly, though, I think that the vast majority of Muslims are drawn instead to Sura 109:



If a Muslim adheres to and acts on Sura 109 by living-and-letting-live, aren't they being a good Muslim? Who says that the death-and-destruction lines should supercede the unto-you-your-religion line, or the begin-not-hostilies line (2:190), or the kill-not-one-another line (4:29)?

I guess the "death-and-destruction" lines supersede the others just by strength of numbers. A simple comparison of the Koran as it is when Islam is 1400 years old versus the Bible as it was when Christianity was 1400 years old reveals many times more direct "death-and-destruction" commands on the Islam side.

Just the "convert them to Islam or kill them" lines in the Koran outnumber the, admittedly plentiful, Christian general commands to commit mayhem.

I am not defending Christianity. All of the Abrahamic religions are primitive, savage reflections of the worst in humanity, their creator, after all. All five gods are terrible things not worthy of worship.

The behaviors in the sacred texts that are said to be "bad" are very very bad and most of those they say are "good" are horrid.

[ILOVEJESUS]

Ellanoor wrote

Fuck Islam, so lets go ahead and set aside the thought "oh here's the former Muslim coming to the rescue of Islam." okay? This fear you have is irrational and if you know anything about Islam, baseless. The teachings found in the Quran aren't so profound that whole civilizations would convert voluntarily at the drop of a hat at a mere reading of it nor are Islamic countries so far advanced they they will convert masses by force as they were in the past. You do know that a majority of Muslims haven't a clue what the Quran says even though they speak the verses every single day? Quoting the Quran, bad verses/good verses, is absolutely useless when it comes to the formation of a Muslim. An average Muslim does not get their knowledge of their religion from the Quran, as I said, the average doesn't even understand it - even those Muslims who speak Arabic don't understand it because while their languages changed Quranic language has remained the same. For today's Arabs, the Quran is written in the language of Shakespeare to American.

All of them need an interpreter. Every other word in the Quran is "Love me, Fear me or I'm going to get you, my pretty." The way that Islam is taught now throughout most of the Islamic world, the type of Islam that won out over enlightened thinking - and yes there was a time when their was enlightened thinking in Islamic societies - (killing/silencing the leaders or followers of those thinkers) is on a course for self-destruction or if it continues, it will remain in stagnation.

They've eliminated higher reasoning, abandoned higher forms of thought and trounced on critical thinking, that is a society, due to its own ideaology, that can't advance, it can't move forward - they've frozen knowledge to set period in time. The Islamic world is not just billions of bodies with one collective mind. The desire to learn English and the popularity and high status of American culture in most Islamic countries are astronomical - which is why the response against American culture is so LOUD by zealots because they see it happening all around them. That is why they are so loud and pushing so hard, because they see those around them slowly changing, they are trying to stem the tide, they are not at the brink of a new explosion of ideas that would convert the world enmass.

The internet is reaching tiny villages in countryside of Afghanistan, new ideas are trickling in in this way and via other means every single day. In my mind, in this situation, eventually, something has to give, and I'm thinking it won't be the desire for advancement, the yearning for knowledge. It is no longer as easy as it once was to demonize non-believers.

I spent some time in the Middle East recently and kids who couldn't speak English would speak to me via Disney channel. When they learned I was an American, they surrounded me with their curiosity and questions, language was a barrier but I understood "Jonas Brothers" and we connected. Yes, this is a tiny thing, but yeah, it matters. They actually "know" a non-believer, they like this non-believer, and as inconsequential as it may seem, that is going to matter when they put their thoughts together.

Well said. It is easy to tar everyone with the same brush. I have had many Pakistani aquaintances in the past. All drank, ( Though with the same disciplin as myself), got told off by their educated and intelligent wives, and had the same disgust for the very backward Islamist members of their community. They actually had a name for them that escapes me. You hear kids saying it about certain kids in the community that carry their families strong religious dogma around with them. Go to any quarter of the arabic world and say David Beckham. You will get acknowledgment from more than half I would estimate. Fuck it Elvis and the Beatles probably drift out the mouths through song or memory of a high percentage of the populus. Look at Iran. People are getting fed up with being stunted in their education and growth due to religious control.
I'm not saying that Islam isn't regaded as the religion of my past Pakistani counterparts. But they were Muslims pretty much the same way my parents were Christian. At Easter an Christmas you got a bit religious in my family. At Ede and selected dates they would too become Muslims. Ie one step away from atheism/agnostic stance.