And Now For Something Completely Different

My name is David, I am 42 years old and from the Midwestern United States. I am a theist - Uh, that is a theist as opposed to an atheist or Ann Elk.

I was raised atheist, or at least apatheist, though not really politically or socially adherent to any labels as such. No Atheist banner flying overhead, just irreligious. In my early 20's I started an intense BIble study in order to debunk it and thus, I thought, religion. Instead I discovered that the Bible was a wholly remarkable Book which had been grossly misrepresented by the pagan influenced Christendom.

Ancient pagan myth introduced later to Xianity by various sources. The immortal soul from Socrates, the trinity from Plato, the cross from Constantine, hell from Dante and Milton, the rapture from Darby, Easter from Astarte and Xmas from the winter solstice cellebrations.

I also like reading (Frank Herbert, Douglas Adams, Berkeley Breathed), British Comedy (Fawlty Towers, Absolutely Fabulous, The Young Ones) and I play drums in a garage (rock) band.

Everyone I know is atheistic minded so I am used to anything you can throw at me. I like the debate, especially if you know what you are talking about when it comes to God and the Bible.

[Irreligious]

Welcome aboard, Daystar.

So you know all about God, do you? That's a rather bold assertion, but not really unusual on this forum.

I'm always curious to know what theists think God is. Is it a he? Is he a magic man in the sky? Does he look like white people? What, exactly, is this entity?

Irreligious wrote

Welcome aboard, Daystar.

Thank you Irreligious, I appreciate that.

Irreligious wrote

So you know all about God, do you? That's a rather bold assertion, but not really unusual on this forum.

Well, now, I didn't say I know all about God, but I am pretty handy with the Bible [thump, thump]. I study it pretty intensely about every day.

Irreligious wrote

I'm always curious to know what theists think God is. Is it a he? Is he a magic man in the sky? Does he look like white people? What, exactly, is this entity?

There are many gods, many of them mentioned in the Bible. Some gods of the Bible are Dagon, Molech, Tammuz, Astarte, Jesus, Satan, Moses, the Judges of Israel, Angels, sticks, ones own belly to name a few. I assume you are talking about Jehovah, the God of the Bible.

Jehovah is neither male nor female, but spirit, which is without sex or gender. He is refered to in the masculine, though. Also being spirit he is invisible to mankind, but since we were created in his image it wouldn't be presumptuous to assume we are similar. He is often represented with white beard, though this is a representation rather than a description. He isn't white or any other colored skin, as he doesn't have skin.

[nkb]

Daystar,
It's amusing that you think you are offering something completely different than what we've seen before.

[Irreligious]

Daystar wrote

Thank you Irreligious, I appreciate that.

You're very welcome.

Daystar wrote

Well, now, I didn't say I know all about God, but I am pretty handy with the Bible [thump, thump]. I study it pretty intensely about every day.

No, you did not explicitly say you know all about God. However, I did infer that from the last line of your introductory post in which you implied that you enjoyed debating those who know what they are talking about when it comes to God and the Bible. I have to assume you would "know" more about God than any atheist would, since atheists, by definition, don't believe this alleged entity even exists.

All I know about God is what what individual theists tell me from their individual perspectives. Otherwise, I am in no position to "know" anything firsthand about an alleged entity that is not in evidence. That's why I asked you for your interpretation, which you have provided, accordingly:

Daystar wrote

There are many gods, many of them mentioned in the Bible. Some gods of the Bible are Dagon, Molech, Tammuz, Astarte, Jesus, Satan, Moses, the Judges of Israel, Angels, sticks, ones own belly to name a few. I assume you are talking about Jehovah, the God of the Bible.

Jehovah is neither male nor female, but spirit, which is without sex or gender. He is refered to in the masculine, though. Also being spirit he is invisible to mankind, but since we were created in his image it wouldn't be presumptuous to assume we are similar. He is often represented with white beard, though this is a representation rather than a description. He isn't white or any other colored skin, as he doesn't have skin.

Well, I am fully aware that there are numerous conceptions of God, gods and other mythical entities. They're usually represented in something resembling human form, but you seem to suggest that is incorrect. Your definition is rather amorphous, however.

I mean, telling me that God is a spirit does not tell me anything useful if I don't know what a spirit is. Could you provide a coherent definition of a spirit and a means by which ordinary human beings could even access such a thing?

In short, I still haven't the foggiest notion what it is you worship.

[Irreligious]

nkb wrote

Daystar,
It's amusing that you think you are offering something completely different than what we've seen before.

And, is there another term, besides atheist, for someone who was raised with only rare mention of God and religion in their household?

Not giving much thought to religion is not the same as actively challenging religious claims, which is what atheists tend to do to get to the point of actively rejecting claims of the alleged supernatural.

I know plenty of Biblically untutored folk who never go to church or participate in religious rituals, but they are hardly atheists in any meaningful sense.

Irreligious wrote

Well, I am fully aware that there are numerous conceptions of God, gods and other mythical entities. They're usually represented in something resembling human form, but you seem to suggest that is incorrect. Your definition is rather amorphous, however.

I mean, telling me that God is a spirit does not tell me anything useful if I don't know what a spirit is. Could you provide a coherent definition of a spirit and a means by which ordinary human beings could even access such a thing?

In short, I still haven't the foggiest notion what it is you worship.

The Hebrew word for god envolves various forms of El, which means mighty or strong one. So anyone or anything can be a god in and as much as it is venerated or respected. This is pretty much in line with the English word god, though it is not commonly applied in a fuller sense.

The Hebrew word ruach and the Greek pneuma is translated as spirit, but it can also be translated as wind, breath, mental inclination or spirit beings. It basically means something that we can't see but that produces results that we can see. Pneuma is where we get our English pneumatic or pneumonia.

God is a spirit, but there are various ways in which one can gain access to the spirit world. Paul used the Greek word pharmakia - translated spiritism. Pharmakia, of course, is where the English pharmacy comes from. He used this term because primitive people even today use drugs, simple or potent, to contact 'spirit beings,' in this case demons.

The God I worship is Jehovah. That name means "he causes to become." The creator of the heavens and Earth.

nkb wrote

Daystar,
It's amusing that you think you are offering something completely different than what we've seen before.

Is it?

[Irreligious]

Daystar wrote

The Hebrew word for god envolves various forms of El, which means mighty or strong one. So anyone or anything can be a god in and as much as it is venerated or respected. This is pretty much in line with the English word god, though it is not commonly applied in a fuller sense.

The Hebrew word ruach and the Greek pneuma is translated as spirit, but it can also be translated as wind, breath, mental inclination or spirit beings. It basically means something that we can't see but that produces results that we can see. Pneuma is where we get our English pneumatic or pneumonia.

God is a spirit, but there are various ways in which one can gain access to the spirit world. Paul used the Greek word pharmakia - translated spiritism. Pharmakia, of course, is where the English pharmacy comes from. He used this term because primitive people even today use drugs, simple or potent, to contact 'spirit beings,' in this case demons.

The God I worship is Jehovah. That name means "he causes to become." The creator of the heavens and Earth.

Thanks for the lesson in etymology, Daystar, but that is far afield from my simple question: What is a spirit?

And telling me what you "believe" about natural phenomena and its alleged intersection with an alleged realm that is not in evidence is not really useful, either. I've met and conversed with lots of folks who believe in the existence a supernatural realm, the details of which vary greatly from one person to the next. They never really tell me how they could know anything about this realm, just what they "believe." Why the hell should I care about someone else's beliefs if what they believe is concretely inaccessible?

That's why I wanted to start simple: What is a spirit?

Irreligious wrote

And, is there another term, besides atheist, for someone who was raised with only rare mention of God and religion in their household?

I used the term apatheist. Agnostic.

Irreligious wrote

Not giving much thought to religion is not the same as actively challenging religious claims, which is what atheists tend to do to get to the point of actively rejecting claims of the alleged supernatural.

Most atheists are not actively considering the matter. Only a handful of them are militant or active, outspoken. The latter tend to lean towards a dogmatic or political and social agenda. The reason why there are so many atheist compared to most other minorities but with very little political or social organizational influence is because most of them don't care about abortion, gay rights, or evolution in schools any more than they do about someone elses mythology.

Irreligious wrote

I know plenty of Biblically untutored folk who never go to church or participate in religious rituals, but they are hardly atheists in any meaningful sense.

Meaningful? I have just basically told you that anyone and anything can be a god. How meaningful could the term atheist possibly be?

[dogpet]

Daystar wrote

Instead I discovered that the Bible was a wholly remarkable Book which had been grossly misrepresented by the pagan influenced Christendom.

Hi David, could you elaborate a bit on this? What booK was there b4 the paganly influenced compiled it? Are you jewish?

Irreligious wrote

Thanks for the lesson in etymology, Daystar, but that is far afield from my simple question: What is a spirit?

Meaning in the original language can be very important since tradition influenced by pagan teachings - fables and myth - have somewhat transmogrified those original teachings.

Irreligious wrote

And telling me what you "believe" about natural phenomena and its alleged intersection with an alleged realm that is not in evidence is not really useful, either. I've met and conversed with lots of folks who believe in the existence a supernatural realm, the details of which vary greatly from one person to the next. They never really tell me how they could know anything about this realm, just what they "believe." Why the hell should I care about someone else's beliefs if what they believe is concretely inaccessible?

How do you equate belief and etymology as of no import in a conversation which you supposedly intended to establish what a specific word means according to what I believe?

Irreligious wrote

That's why I wanted to start simple: What is a spirit?

I have told you. Something that is invisible but produces results. Breath, wind, mental inclination and spirit beings such as God, angels, etc.

[Irreligious]

Daystar wrote

I used the term apatheist. Agnostic.

Fair enough. It just raises my hackles when devoutly religious folks claim to have been raised "atheist."

What you describe does not sound all that different or all that remarkable from the folks I know who were raised nominally Christian and, in adulthood, became Muslims. Somewhere, these folks were always open to the idea that it is acceptable to embrace a worldview in which there was some central authority figure-- unseen, unheard, all powerful and very invested in human affairs-- at the helm, guarding the universe.

Even when I was being raised as a Baptist, I had to acknowledge that I saw no evidence for this great leap of faith.

Daystar wrote

Most atheists are not actively considering the matter. Only a handful of them are militant or active, outspoken. The latter tend to lean towards a dogmatic or political and social agenda. The reason why there are so many atheist compared to most other minorities but with very little political or social organizational influence is because most of them don't care about abortion, gay rights, or evolution in schools any more than they do about someone elses mythology.

We're not reaching the same conclusions as you, but you are wrong to tell me that I have not actively considered the idea of the alleged supernatural. Dead wrong.

As for political agendas, please. I am personally acquainted with devout Christians and Jews whose social agendas differ little from the atheists I know. Believing in an alleged god does not preclude anyone from being pro-choice on abortion, in favor of gay rights and against teaching religious dogma in public schools.

Daystar wrote

Meaningful? I have just basically told you that anyone and anything can be a god. How meaningful could the term atheist possibly be?

It means a lot to me. It means I am not shackled to the arbitrary imaginings in other people's heads.

dogpet wrote

Hi David, could you elaborate a bit on this? What booK was there b4 the paganly influenced compiled it? Are you jewish?

I am not Jewish. I don't quite understand the first part of your question. What book was there before the paganly influenced compiled it?

The writers of the BIble were not influenced by pagan teachings, the influence came much later. Those teachings were around for ages before they were introduced into the apostate church.

[Irreligious]

Daystar, this, um, debate is not going to be very productive or fulfilling if all you intend to do is tell us what you "believe."

You are not answering my question about what a spirit is. Truthfully, I already knew you could not, but I was hopeful that it would show you how fruitless this conversation is going to be, because this is utterly unacceptable:

Daystar wrote

Something that is invisible but produces results. Breath, wind, mental inclination and spirit beings such as God, angels, etc.

I'm sorry, but you can't peddle bullshit like this here and expect to remain in our good graces. I tell you from nearly 3 years of experience at ravingatheists.com, it ain't gonna happen.